Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Phyllis Keino (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 09:04, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Phyllis Keino

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Nothing at all for actual independent notability, I have found nothing at all from my searches; this is advertorial with it containing nothing actually substantial. Any policies would be the applicable notability, WP:BIO and WP:GNG. SwisterTwister talk 05:15, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as per nomination, nothing to indicate this meets WP:BIO or WP:GNG Melcous (talk) 07:46, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 07:20, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 07:20, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Kenya-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 07:20, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I went through every single page of google results, and found nothing. No chance of passing GNG per nom and Melcous. Yvarta (talk) 11:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Maybe the article disguises her notability by not mentioning her long marriage, now over. There are reliable sources about her and Kip Keino starting their work in the 1960s/1970s, confirming that Phyllis K has been caring for abandoned children for decades. As well as these articles [1] [2] [3] [4] [5][6] there are a few more in UK subscription databases. Also see NYT 1989: "In Kenya, the Keinos are known for their humanitarian work." Searching Google Books for Phyllis Keino, with and without quotes, confirms she is known for being a partner in the children's home/school/farm setup. In 1998, for example: "Volunteers from far-flung countries have come to the Keino farm to offer their time and labor, and individuals who admire the Keinos often send small cash donations of $10 or $20. Thus far, Kip and Phyllis Keino have harbored and nurtured hundreds of children within the walls of their farmhouse and dormitory. Today, seventy-three children and young adults, ages two to twenty-two, live on the farm." In 2003 a Kenyan newspaper reported on a rift in their marriage, and implications for their children's establishments.[7] [8] It looks as if PK kept on a big share of the charitable work. One of the stories said there could be a risk of losing support from Bread and Water for Africa and Christian Relief Services, but these US/international charities have clearly stuck with PK. With all this in mind, I'd think some of the recent sources cited in the article confirm notability. They suggest her awards and spokeswoman roles are based on a reputation built up over years. Lelijg (talk) 17:35, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete~~ Not much in terms of coverage, although there is something here but not enough to meet the GNG imo.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:40, 18 August 2016 (UTC) Update: changing to Weak keep based on sourcing from Lelijg (above) and based on his comments below. Clearly Phyllis was a major part of what happened, and it's not really right that she should be overshadowed simply because her husband is much more famous. If all the numerous mentions (from reliable sources) are taken into consideration, then perhaps it pushes her into the Keep column, albeit a weak keep. So I've changed my view.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:49, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of the sources I found (see above) come up with a search on her name minus quotes. That's what she gets for being half of "the Keinos" or Kip Keino's wife Phyllis! There's still plenty written about her as an individual, to meet GNG. Lelijg (talk) 08:15, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I checked again. Most of your sources are simply mentions. There is an in-depth one here. Still, mostly the sources are about the Olympian -- and his wife -- that kind of thing, suggesting the real focus is not on her, but on him. If you find another source -- in-depth, focusing on her -- I can be persuaded to change my view.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to me to be more than just "mentions" and overall the coverage adds up to personal notability, especially considering these are US and UK sources and we have no access to Kenyan newspapers from the 1970s to 1990s. Sure, the journalists start with the big Olympic star, but overall PK's role is described in enough detail to show she was always key to the project, hence the ongoing support from charities and also the award (p6) from an organisation that appears to be in no way affiliated with her. Lelijg (talk) 17:47, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Probably merits a bit more discussion on the recently provided sources Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Was leaning delete and I'm no friend to marginal mentions, which many are. But there is enough coverage of her to pass notability. ~~I think the better decision is not to have a page of her own and combine content with her husband, as most coverage does, but~~ does this pass GNG? Yes. Methods: Ran a Lexis search on Phyllis Keino (sans quotes) and got 32 hits. 25 of those, I would say, are marginal mentions with little content other than her marriage and former profession. A couple of false hits, but 5-6 sources with sufficient content. I'll briefly quote from the Vancouver Sun 2005 article, per Tomwsulcer request, "They are mothers to many, the backbone of a country with so many children in need. Phyllis Keino runs the Lewa Children's Home in western Kenya; Grace Seneiya runs the Samburu Handicap Education and Rehabilitation Program (SHERP) orphanage for children with disabilities in northern Kenya. Vancouverite Susan Standfield has enlisted both to become partners in her company, the Children's Photographic Gallery of Kenya. Here is the story of the two orphanages and the two women. In the 1970s, the Keino family started caring for abandoned children. In 1987, with the help of a Benedictine father, Paul Durr, Phyllis managed to buy a farm for the orphanage. A nurse by training, she is a strong, energetic woman." And it continues. There's a few others, not many, but they are there. AbstractIllusions (talk) 11:30, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Merge/Redirect to Kip Keino. She is barely mentioned there, and the article about her does not mention him, so there would have to be significant research to merge the two articles. If nobody volunteers to do that, I would say Delete. --MelanieN (talk) 02:33, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any policy about merging BLPs for a separated couple? As you say, it would be difficult work to do it well. Lelijg (talk) 07:41, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: Draft:Bread and Water for Africa TimothyJosephWood 13:02, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
)Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 12:53, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I respond to Lelijg: I couldn't find a policy about it. But it should cause a pause in any decision to merge, right? The care to be taken with living persons would certainly extend to the page on which their information is organized. I now think Merge would be a very bad idea and reiterate that this is a person with multiple individual profiles, so I don't see why it wouldn't be kept. AbstractIllusions (talk) 21:55, 8 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks AbstractIllusions for improving the article and adding refs. Definitely more balanced, and truer to sources. Worth keeping. Lelijg (talk) 12:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Considering my nomination will be closing here soon I presume, but has anyone honestly actually gone through this article and subsequently found nothing is either substantial or significant for establishing her own career article? The article (in the first sentence) makes claims of connections to Kip himself, but I honestly am not believing we should redirect or merge there, since there's still nothing essential to merge; anything that is important to state there, can be stated with only a few sentences at best. The awards here themselves contain nothing actually convincing, her career section essentially goes through information about her jobs and what happened, and then also about her family life. SwisterTwister talk 05:36, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There is no basis for merging mentions into an articles. One has to be notable for something, and any number of very mibnior activities do not make one notable, there has to be something important, becqqause only they are what is reflected in substantial sources. DGG ( talk ) 04:40, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SwisterTwister & DGG. Response What are you all talking about? You seem to be judging the quality of her works. That's not the point. The question is simple: from WP:GNG is there "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"? Her charity work has been covered in multiple newspapers, both alone and in coverage where she receives significant coverage in articles primarily about Kip. I've added multiple sources to the article including two lengthy profiles of her work in the Vancouver Sun and the East African Standard. Let's stick to GNG significant coverage standard, rather than a "minor activities" standard that you both seem to be embracing. AbstractIllusions (talk) 16:38, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From the currently listed sources, I see nothing to suggest there's actual substance for her; I notice several non-URL sources, an interview, other mentions and these including for events or part of the philanthropy. SwisterTwister talk 17:08, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, access to databases of newspapers is handy for figuring out notability, I admit it. Either AGF or be upset, but just because you can't see them that doesn't change that her work has been covered in multiple newspapers. So...yeah. AbstractIllusions (talk) 17:13, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. "The Immortals: The Keinos have always set the pace". The Standard. 2016-08-18. Archived from the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
  The article notes:
  
  Phyllis Keino: The spokesperson for Bread and Water for Africa is a registered nurse. She founded Lewa Children’s Home inside the 500 acres acquired from the Craig family in 1987. She also runs Kipkeino School, a primary boarding founded by hubby, ‘kip’ in 1999 besides the family’s Baraka Farm. The recipient of the 2006 Visionary Award from Christian Relief Services and the 2010 World of Difference 100 Award from the International Alliance for Women, is a mother of seven including famous son, Martin Keino.
2. Abrahamson, Alan. (2001-02-25). "Grand Kenyans" (pages 1, 2, and 3). Los Angeles Times. Archived from the original (pages 1, 2, and 3) on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
  The article notes:
  
  In a world too often dominated by tales of athletes who think me-first, Keino, 61, and his wife, Phyllis, make abundantly clear what the grace of selflessness and a heartfelt devotion to others can accomplish in life.
  ...
  Bob Keino, 24, the fifth of seven children born to Kip and Phyllis, says, "He always taught us--you can be the best in the world at your sport but you always have to be humble."
  ...
  When he came home to Kenya from the 1972 Olympics, Keino had four Olympic medals. By the end of that year, he and Phyllis would have eight children in their house.
  Three had been born to them. Phyllis said she found the others queuing for food in front of a police station. A nurse, she told her husband that the children needed them. He agreed. "I feel the humanity of being a human being," he says now.
  Thus was launched what is now the Kip Keino Children's Home. Since 1984, the home has been officially registered with the Kenyan government.
  ...
  Baraka was bought in 1989 for the Children's Home through a Swiss priest stationed in Eldoret. The idea was Phyllis'. She wanted more land in order to grow more food for the children and to generate income for the Home.
  ...
  At Kazi Mingi, meantime, Phyllis' day begins at 5:30 a.m. It ends late at night.
3. Finney, Peter (1993-06-05). "Martin is a Kip off the Old Keino Block". The Times-Picayune. Archived from the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
  The article notes:
  
  Naturally, 53-year-old Kip was elated over the triple of his 20-year-old son. Martin Keino, the third-oldest of eight children, has no problem living in the shadow of a small man who continues to cast a long shadow. Kip and Phyllis Keino operate an orphanage in their hometown of Eldoret, Kenya. They've been taking in orphans for the 30 years of their married life, providing a home for more than 100 children representing a half-dozen tribes. They've taken in the malnourished, malformed and maltreated. They've given each child a name in English and Nandi, which is Kip's native tongue.
4. "Keino's wife has different view of snow". USA Today. 1988-01-05. Archived from the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
  The article notes:
  
  Kip Keino, two-time Olympic gold medalist, believes education is the key to life.
  His wife, Phyllis Keino, got an education in snow when 4 inches were on the ground by Monday.
  "I didn't know snow fell from the sky," said Phyllis Keino, who saw her first snow Sunday. "I just thought it was on the ground."
  The Keinos, who live in Kenya, were in the capital for a presentation for Sports Illustrated's Male and Female Athletes of the Year. Keino was one of eight recognized for contributions to society. He and the others - Dale Murphy, Reggie Williams, Chip Rives, Patty Sheehan, Judi Brown King, Rory Sparrow and Bob Bourne - were at the White House Monday.
  The Keinos have provided a home for 100 orphans since they married in 1964.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Phyllis Keino to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 03:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning keep -- I believe that enough sources have been presented for individual notability, outside of marriage. The article also have been sufficiently improved by AbstractIllusions to avoid WP:PROMO. I thus believe that the article can stay. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:59, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to give people time to evaluate the sources found by Cunard -- RoySmith (talk) 23:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 23:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I see no policy violation, and I'm willing to WP:AGF with Cunard's new sources as I have found the editor to be reliable in the past. With that, I see a pass on WP:GNG.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:30, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets WP:GNG. Article could use clean up and improved referencing, not deletion per WP:ATD. Hmlarson (talk) 20:33, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
delete the sources here are all passing mentions. Some of the notes above are baffling to me; if you can actually quote the entire discussion in a source here at AfD, that is exactly what a "passing mention" is. There needs to be significant discussion in multiple independent sources to pass GNG. Jytdog (talk) 00:02, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This is a pretty clear delete. Every single source...yes, every single source contains a passing mention at best. That doesn't ever add up to "significant coverage". Considering a one or two line mention as a significant coverage is a mockery of WP:WHYN. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:20, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep per WP:HEY, WP:BARE. A marginal case, this can be improved further by adding the sources found. Bearian (talk) 18:39, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.