Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Peter Wall (priest)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I’m not sure that the added coverage really meets the threshold of the GNG in regards to significant independent coverage focused on Wall the person, but none of the earlier delete opinions factored in the added sourcing uncovered during the AfD, whereas it was considered in later keeps. If another AfD is filed in the future, it should deal with the quality of the coverage in these sources. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:04, 18 April 2019 (UTC) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:04, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Wall (priest)[edit]

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No indication of encyclopedic notability. Priests, even rectors and deans, are not inherently notable. bd2412 T 00:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 01:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 01:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 01:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, per nominator. --MrClog (talk) 07:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, per nominator. CalOtter (talk) 13:07, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, per nominator. Gimubrc (talk) 16:29, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete , no indication of notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:18, 27 March 2019 (UTC) Probably KEEP. He does come up in news searches on "peter Wal" + Niagara. I think we need time to take a closer look and source this one.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:29, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Clergy are usually notable and we have an article about every other Dean of Niagara. Andrew D. (talk) 11:07, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep Deans of Cathedrals are generally notable. This article is however so slender that I would not have known. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:15, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the only clergy who are presumed notable are bishops, and even that is more open to question than some accept. Clearly there are not enough sources to show notability here.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:58, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Can we have some discussion of actual sources please?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:33, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What sources? There's the guy's LinkedIn (dubious as a source to begin with), a random blog, and an unattributed "guide" with no known provenance. Not exactly thorough. Gimubrc (talk) 20:49, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ Clergy are not presumed to be notable – this lacks substantive independent sources to establish notability. All of the others in Dean of Niagara were created by the same user and likewise lack notability, so the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument above is nonsense; they should be deleted as well. Reywas92^Talk 00:59, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Au contraire Page creator has created over 6,000 aritcles of which 0.04% have been deleted. Dean of a cathedral is one of those positions that, while it does not confer notability automatically, in practice will almost always be filled by an individual who is notable by our standards. As is the case here.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, because these sub-stubs are largely unread and it's quite a task to address this single-handed decision to make all these. I have struck my delete because you have shown articles exist which mention the incumbent, but it is preposterous to assume they are all notable, and this mass creation of sub-stubs sourced only to directories is unwarranted. Not every dean ran for election to bishop or had a local-interest article written about their singing trio. Bishop of a diocese is high elected position that may have inherent notability but dean is not. The Diocese of Niagara has a profile of its bishop, but Wall is part of the ministry of his local parish. Reywas92^Talk 20:49, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Except, if one actually searches for sources, he has them:
gNews search: [1].E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:06, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

and this book [2].E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:11, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lots more coverage of Wall in archive search:

Anglicans set to pick new bishop: [Final Edition] Boase, Sharon. The Spectator; Hamilton, Ont. [Hamilton, Ont]02 June 2007: A9. (Wall who, as Dean of the Diocese of hitNiagara, is second-in-command to...)
Anglican priest defends his marrying lesbian couple: [Final Edition] Standard; St. Catharines, Ont. [St. Catharines, Ont]19 Nov 2003: A9. (said Reverend Peter Wall, dean of Niagara and rector of Christ's Church... ...in September that a priest in Niagara had presided over a gay marriage and he...)
Urban Anglican dioceses urge clarity on same-sex issue: [Final Edition]Boase, Sharon. The Spectator; Hamilton, Ont. [Hamilton, Ont]04 June 2004: A06. (Wall, Dean of Niagara Diocese, said numerous Anglicans, "old and young, straight...)
New look for Christ's Church Cathedral; Beautification project will cost diocese $250,000: [Final Edition] The Spectator; Hamilton, Ont. [Hamilton, Ont]27 Sep 2002: A03. (Peter Wall, dean of Niagara and cathedral rector, says Bishopgate... Peter Wall stands in front of Christ's Church...)

Keep In sum: ~~WP:TROUT article creator for annoyingly and irresponsibly creating a page without sourcing it.~~ But the fact is that Hall is notable. As Dean he has managed a number of notable things, like the dis-interment and re-interment of graves of historically disparaged individuals, renovations of notable ecclesiastical buildings - and more, I haven't sifted thought even a fraction of the hits. Plus he has been a lighting rod in Anglican circles on gay marriage (note book above). I urge page creator User:Bashereyre to repent, return and redeem himself by upgrading this and the articles on the other Niagara Deans.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't access the archive you can, but which of these sources go into any level of biographical detail about Wall? These all appear to be passing mentions or quotations, including the book, which looking at the info page is not even a published reliable source. Managing a building renovation and reinterring bodies are nice lines on a resume as part of the job, but it doesn't confer notability – the sources are about the church, not Wall himself. Most of the GNews hits are from The Anglican Journal, published by the Canadian Anglican Church, so I don't think that counts as independent. This article creator has indeed irresponsibly started literally thousands of clergy sub-stubs like this one – this incumbent may in fact have a preponderance of mentions in the news but the previous ones are certainly not inherently notable. Reywas92^Talk 06:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reywas, He is hard to search - there are so many Peters Wall, plus the CBC has a correspondent named "Peter Wall" who appears to have reported from every town where "our" Peter has lived. Nevertheless, take a look at the material I added from just the first two articles I read. Articles I found using "Bishop Cronyn" as a keyword. I'll get back to the stuff I found in my first search, but appreciate any help you can render building the article. I'm sure you can think of some search terms I might miss.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:21, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"This article creator has indeed irresponsibly started literally thousands of clergy sub-stubs like this one"

Hi I am "this article creator". Perhaps User:Reywas92 would care to read Wikipedia:Civility Bashereyre (talk) 14:25, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by my statement. You have made countless minuscule articles on every Anglican dean, without showing evidence of notability, for example Maurice O'Corry. How does a listing in a clerical directory such as that in George Warren (priest) establish notability? Reywas92^Talk 20:49, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, Maurice O'Corry was appointed the Dean of Armagh in 1380 and deprived in 1398. Brief entries of this sort are useful to historians of the late middle ages. Reywas92, Please AGF, let Maurice O'Corry rest in peace, and keep the focus on Rev. Wall.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:HEY I have begun a HEYMANN upgrade, only begun - there is a good deal of WP:SIGCOV on Wall's career, from the 90s forward. Although sources exist from which this article can be expanded, I believe that it now meets WP:BASIC.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:54, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Surely any stub article is just that, one that can be expanded. As has been proved countless times. The creator is giving others the opportunity to do just that. No one contributor can be expected to know everything about everything, although Google's original intention was to do just that.Bashereyre (talk) 08:31, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One day, hitting the random search button it yielded this. Grumpy Old Man, not an article about me but an episode of Family Guy. How is this notable? I would never dream of sticking a delete notice on it, even though this sort of cartoon is not my bag. The main article on FG is definitely notable and maybe if after a few series they had decided on a different approach, that would be notable. Maybe if they did an episode that really hit home ie straight after a mass murder such as Sandy Hook or the Christchurch mosques, that would be notable. My point- why is Grumpy Old Man notable but the Dean of an Anglican Cathedral not. Just saying...Bashereyre (talk) 14:49, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the improvements made to the article since this discussion began. Bradv🍁 13:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I probably don't need to spell this out, but I am by no means endorsing the argument above that priests, or deans in particular, are inherently notable. I'm just commenting on this one. Bradv🍁 23:37, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: To discuss the improvements that have now been made.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:51, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More coverage exists in news archives, detailing his management of the cathedral property (large, public buildings have complexities that get covered, Hall's the decision maker on this stuff.). More coverage also exists of his role in the first gay marriage in Canada performed by an Anglican priest in an Anglican church, and the impact of that wedding on his career. Major, reliable newspapers. National coverage. I do think he meets WP:BASIC. But I also understand that many editors lack access to the news archives that make his notability easy to see.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.