Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pact of Vengeance

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was draftify. Karl Twist, you may want to take a look at WP:BLUDGEON. Sandstein 16:20, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Pact of Vengeance

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Pact of Vengeance (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Sources fail WP:NFILM and WP:GNG. ––FormalDude talk 06:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Film and United States of America. ––FormalDude talk 06:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Note to closing admin - If by chance this film page is considered for deletion based on the consensus could we please just re-direct it to Leo Fong#Film career thus preserving the history etc. and then at another time we'll spark things up. Many thanks Karl Twist (talk) 09:13, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Keep - I think the film is notable enough. There's been a fair bit of work done on this by mainly 2 editors> even though I'm not in a agreement with how the other main editor has done things, I still note the effort!. As the film has already made some waves and been noted in the right places and was only released this month, it will go on to achieve much more cult status. I can guarantee this. Leo Fong aka Mr. Low Blow was a cult figure in B grade and guerilla filmmaking. Len Kabasinski is too. Due to the fact that this is Leo Fong's last film and he died early this year on 18th of February, I can see the attention on this film already. Thanks. Karl Twist (talk) 09:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Being potentially notable in the future is not sufficient. Moving to draftspace would likely be the best choice if that is the case. ––FormalDude talk 09:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
    • Reply I disagree, there's already a history with a lot of work by 2 editors. Even if the article page here is found to be not notable, 3 other editors have made edits. There's a lot of history. Many pages, much of them films are redirected to another page. There are also other articles that reference the film. Best to preserve history, put a note on the redirection page that there should be a discussion first before the page is taken off re-direct. That's the way to do it! Karl Twist (talk) 10:20, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
      • A move to draftspace also preserves the history of the page, but I'm not opposed to a redirect. ––FormalDude talk 11:09, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Draftify / Redirect, as was my original intent when I reviewed this at NPP, but this was refused, so now we're here. WP:TOOSOON, only one possible limited release at a film festival next month, no independent critics reviews - the only people who have seen the film so far are sponsors. Heck, my pup has had a few films show up at local film festivals. This one's 90 miles from where it was shot. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 04:49, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

• Reply to the above - From what I can see, it's made a fair bit of commotion and there's an article about it in a magazine. Yes, it was only released this month and with a slot in a Fest next month and others, it will be easily be going the same way of Challenge of Five Gauntlets and with Leo Fong's death passing it. I have already said that it should stay but for what ever reason it comes to the crunch, then a redirect for the present. It's pointless putting it into draft as there are already multiple notable articles that link to it and the re-direction to Leo Fong the section can be expanded there as well.

Not sure what 90 miles have to do with this or your pup. Throw it in if you want but it doesn't lessen anything. Now, if we were talking about cats? They can play piano. Karl Twist (talk) 06:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm just trying to get the film notability above WP:MILL / WP:HOLE and the millions of videos. When it reaches multiple film festivals and not just the nearest one. This is similar to voice actor convention appearances where the person just travels to the one within driving distance for the day, or when a garage band gets a gig at a county/state music festival a few hours away. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 15:55, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Reply to the above - Oh I think it's above WP:MILL / WP:HOLE . It's been mentioned in this early time on the necessary sites. Well more than a great deal of other films here on Wikipedia. A film fest of lack of one doesn't lessen the value. Karl Twist (talk) 11:25, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - So below is what the page looked like when I had edited before the other editor came in. Here and below

Pact of Vengeance - Revision as of 12:38, 15 July 2022

Pact of Vengeance Directed by Len Kabasinski Written by Len Kabasinski Starring Len Kabasinski, Leo Fong, Jon Mikl Thor Cinematography Stephen Steinbacher Production company Killer Wolf Films Release date July 15, 2022 Country United States Language English Pact of Vengeance is an American action film released in 2022. Directed by Len Kabasinski, and features him in the lead role. It also stars Leo Fong, PB Smooth, Jon Mikl Thor and Priscilla Zuniga. About the film In this action / thriller film, the inner city is now being controlled by the Black Roses who are a ruthless gang of street punks. They are extorting local businesses, collecting "Turf Money. The owner of one business, Zian is retired special forces commander. He refuses to comply! This results in the gang seriously assaulting his granddaughter (Angie Lee who manages the business). With no other alternative, Zian has no option but to call on his on his old special forces team, "The Obliterators" for assistance. Released in 2022, this film featured Leo Fong in his last role. Cast Name Role Notes # Len Kabasinski Jan Nowalski Leo Fong Zian Jon Mikl Thor John Pearce Meghan Deanna Smith Charge Nurse Lisa Neeld Ally Bill Smith Policeman Deborah Lee Smith Hospital Surgeon Xander Goldman Policeman Peter Hernandez Rutger Thomas David Greyson General Ortega Priscilla Zuniga Ava Hernandez PB Smooth Jenna M. Fryer Angie Lee Malia Mann Janie John Catheline Devon References External links Articles for deletion/Pact of Vengeance at IMDb Reviews AV Club review Voices from the Balcony review Bands about Movies, March 8, 2020 Pact of Vengeance (2021) The Action Elite - New Trailer for Pact of Vengeance Category:2020s action films

And this is what it looks like now, here and below

Pact of Vengeance - revision as of 04:09, 19 July 2022

Pact of Vengeance Directed by Len Kabasinski Written by Len Kabasinski Produced by Chuck Paterniti Robert Crews Greg Orsi Matthew Helein Matt Herman Starring Leo Fong Jon Mikl Thor Priscilla "Diamante" Zuniga Peter Avalon Len Kabasinski Cinematography Stephen Steinbacher Edited by Stephen Steinbacher Production company Killer Wolf Films Release dates July 2022 (2022-07) (Patreon) August 2022 (2022-08) (Buffalo Dreams Fantastic Film Festival) Country United States Language English Pact of Vengeance is an American action film released in 2022. It is directed and written by martial artist filmmaker Len Kabasinski, and stars Leo Fong, Jon Mikl Thor, Priscilla "Diamante" Zuniga, and Peter Avalon. Summary The inner city is being controlled by the Black Roses, who are a ruthless gang of street punks. They are extorting local businesses and collecting turf money. Zian, a retired special forces commander, refuses to comply. The Black Roses violently attack Zian's granddaughter Angie who manages the business. Due to the city officials and local law enforcement doing nothing to stop the gang, Zian takes action. He calls in his old special forces team "the Obliterators" for assistance. Cast PB Smooth in the film Pact of Vengeance. Leo Fong as Zian, a business owner of Champions Garage and former special forces commander. This was Fong's final acting role. Jon Mikl Thor as John Pearce Priscilla "Diamante" Zuniga as Ava Hernandez Peter Avalon Len Kabasinski as Jan Nowalski, head mechanic at Champions Garage Lisa Neeld as Ally, Jan's wife Jenna M. Fryer as Angie Lee, Zian's granddaughter and manager of Champions Garage Pro wrestler PB Smooth and former Sylvester Stallone bodyguard Matt Karedas are also attached to the film. Production and release Len Kabasinski directed the film and the producers include Chuck Paterniti, Robert Crews, Greg Orsi, Matthew Helein, and Matt Herman. Kabasinski had worked with Leo Fong previously in the action film, Challenge of The Five Gauntlets which was released in 2018. A film poster done in the style of a VHS videotape cover was released in 2020 showing Leo Fong, Jon Mikl Thor, Matt Karedas, and Kabasinski. The film was crowdfunded at Indiegogo and Patreon. In March 2021, Kabasinski announced that pro wrestler Diamante would be starring. Pro wrestlers Peter Avalon and PB Smooth were also included. Filming took place in Erie, Pennsylvania and Los Angeles. Stephen Steinbacher was the director of photography and editor. Thor contributed 3 music tracks to the film, including the theme song. The band Black Widow Conspiracy contributed the track "This Ain't No Love Song". Kabasinski released a film trailer on YouTube on December 2, 2021. Fong was 93 at that time. Kabasinski later tweeted that screenings were made available to Patreon subscribers in July 2022. On July 6, the Buffalo Dreams Fantastic Film Festival announced it would be screening Pact of Vengeance in August. Reception Jim Morazzini of Voices from the Balcony gave the film 2 out of 5 stars, writing that "[Kabasinski] seems to be taking his cues from 80s films like The Annihilators, the squad here is even called 'The Obliterators' with vets forced to fight the war on crime." He also wrote, "If you just want to see a bunch of bad guys get killed in ridiculously one-sided fights along and loads of bare boobs you may enjoy Pact of Vengeance. If you want to see a competent action film however you're out of luck." Joe Esposito of Ozone Nightmare said that the movie is a throwback to 1980s films and Death Wish, that pro wrestlers are well suited for this kind of movie, and that Len was able to do much with his limited budget. References External links Articles for deletion/Pact of Vengeance at IMDb Category:2020s action films Category:Films shot in Erie, Pennsylvania Category:2020s English-language films

With both of them, they have much more refs than a great amount of movies here. I believe it scrapes in. Karl Twist (talk) 06:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 17:51, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
• Karl Twist I had to change some of the markup, as it was messing with the way this nomination was being displayed at AfD and the deletion sorting locations. It's generally better to just show page history diffs than post the content verbatim for this reason, although I can understand why you did this. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm the "other editor" in question. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 15:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:36, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

• Draftify at the most per AngusWOOF's reasoning. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 14:09, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

  Reply to above,

  Dear XtraJovial , I don't see what logical reasoning AngusWOOF has provided. First of all the film with its actors cannot be considered one of the many that get put out. Len Kabasinski's co-star Leo Fong is well-known as a cult B-grade actor. He has acted with Butz Aquino, Charlie Davao, Tony Ferrer, Darnell Garcia, Philip Baker Hall, Hope Holiday, James Lew, D'Urville Martin, Cameron Mitchell, Richard Norton, Stack Pierce, Chanda Romero, Richard Roundtree, Vic Silayan, Fred Williamson and more. With the supporting actors in Pact of Vengeance such as Jon Mikl Thor, Diamante, Peter Avalon, and appearances by PB Smooth and Matt Hannon, this can't be as non-mentionable as our fellow Wikipedia editor appears to think it is.

  Even before release

  Even though the film hasn't been released on dvd yet, the anticipation ((Part of the appeal is that it is Leo Fong's final role)) and the fact that it has been noticed by Voices From The Balcony and reviewed on July 9, 2022, reviewed by Bands about Movies, reviewed by Ozone Nightmare, picked up by Horror News], noted on PW Mania in an article about PB Smooth, noted on Classic Rock Louder Sound site in the Louder Sound "Thor: the incredible story of 80s metal’s mightiest hero" article, and the Brave Words & Bloody Knuckles site article about Thor, in the "THOR UNITES WITH SOILWORK’S BJÖRN “SPEED” STRID ON NEW SINGLE "NIFLHEL (REALM OF THE DEAD)" article, it's got to be something other than what AngusWOOF's reasoning and determination comes to. So the film is noted in Wrestling, Music (Heavy Metal) and Horror sites all credible referencing.

  Also

  Well, its release is noted on AV Club, Radio Times, The Action Elite. Len Kabasinski's interview by Salty Nerd on Anchor.fm is worth listening to as well.

  Not wanting to flood the page, I will leave it here. Karl Twist (talk) 09:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

As discussed on the draft talk page, AV Club, Action Elite, Radio Times are just supplying IMDb database information about the film. Radio Times even says it's pulling its info from IMDb. Action Elite is just reprinting the trailer summary and the posters. So at this point they are contributing nothing towards notability. When AV Club or Radio Times puts out a real review from a critic, then you can revisit. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 15:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't know - I think WP:TOOSOON and the lack of independent reviews are logical reasons for draftification. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 20:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• Draftify The film will most likely pass notability guidelines upon release, but as of now it does not. DonaldD23 talk to me 13:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

  Well if the consensus leans away from a keep, why not just have it on re-direct? It is pointless having it on draft. It should be a working link. There's no sensible reason given to have it on draftify as opposed to a re-direct. Karl Twist (talk) 05:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  The reason would be that the draft can continue to be improved upon with these newer sources, ideally, more post-release critics reviews and reception / future screenings and video release. Ozone Nightmare is a critics review from a Patreon sponsor. Horror News article was just a preview based on the trailer, and PW Mania spotlighted the one wrestler who had a bit role in the film. Louder than Sound focused on a single band that contributed a track to the film. These aren't really significant coverage from independent reliable sources. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 15:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Reply to AngusWOOF, well there's more to the film than just the Ozone Nightmare review or the Horror News review and PW Mania mentioning " one wrestler who had a bit role in the film" or "Louder than Sound focused on a single band that contributed a track to the film". You appear to be a bit selective on how you are trying to make a case. There's much more to this film as I have stated. And there's also the Cinecutre review on December 8, 2022 - ¡LO NUEVO DE LEN KABASINSKI!: Trailer de “Pact of Vengeance” con Leo Fong y Jon Mikl Thor. por Xabier Esquíroz. Tailer reviews or film reviews or whatever, the anticipation has been noted. If the closing admin's decision leans away from a Keep then the sensible thing to do is have it on re-direct to Leo Fong#Work with Len Kabasinski. There is a Work with Len Kabasinski subsection there. At present and in addition to Leo Fong's page there are the Jon Mikl Thor, Diamante, PB Smooth and Matt Hannon pages that link to it so far. So we have working links to that page! Better to redirect if the consensus is not keep. This is what happens with many films etc. Karl Twist (talk) 09:19, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.