Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ota Kohoutek
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Editors here have patiently explained, through words and a source table, while the sources are inadequate to establish notabilty as expected by Wikipedia newer standards of notability for sports figure (from 2022). The fact that there are other articles that are in equally bad shape is irrelevant to this discussion. You can always nominate them for an AFD discussion. If an editor wants to work on this article in Draft space, let me know or go to WP:REFUND but know that you will need to submit it to WP:AFC for review. Liz Read! Talk! 06:29, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
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- Ota Kohoutek (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Does not meet WP:GNG criteria. Lack of sources, no significant coverage. Insignificant footballer with only 12 starts in professional football, last being in May 2022, more than 2 years ago. Maybe one day he will restart his career, but WP:NOTJUSTYET. FromCzech (talk) 05:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- There were added references and sources to prove media coverage. At the end of the article there is statement about WP:STUB, which is perfectly sufficient and says that anyone can improve the site by expanding it. Pospeak (talk) 06:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Notability still not proven, sources still unsufficient. FromCzech (talk) 07:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Notability has been proved by adding 3 references and 3 external links. That is more than many others footballer pages. Perfectly sufficient for stub. Pospeak (talk) 15:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @FromCzech I saw you edited the page Ota Kohoutek recently. Am I to understand that you agree to keep it? Pospeak (talk) 14:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- No. FromCzech (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- So why are you revising an article that you think should be deleted? Isn't that pointless? Pospeak (talk) 06:44, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- No. FromCzech (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Notability still not proven, sources still unsufficient. FromCzech (talk) 07:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Czech Republic. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 14:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found which show significant coverage please ping me. GiantSnowman 14:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- 8 resources of total were added to the page. Pospeak (talk) 05:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - 3 references and 5 external links are sufficient enough for stub. — Note to closing admin: Pospeak (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 06:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Did he year Brno a year ago? If his career was ongoing, I might have said draftifty. Geschichte (talk) 19:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per above. 21 Andromedae (talk) 18:11, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- You mean draftify per above? I would be OK with that, a reasonable compromise. Currently only three sources are used, one is about his father not him, one is about his debut, which doesn't demonstrate any notability, and one is about his club's success, not about him. FromCzech (talk) 18:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why do you feel the need to change someone's free opinion? This is a democratic discussion (which would not be necessary if you were not a deleting hardliner). Three references and five external links prefectly demonstrate notability. Pospeak (talk) 12:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not changing anyone's opinion, I'm just trying to spark a discussion because the post was unclear. It's the quality of the sources that matters, not the quantity. And that was nowhere near achieved in this case, as I analyze above. FromCzech (talk) 12:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- What is unclear about the keep statement? As I wrote earlier, 8 sources (containing one full-length interview) is more than many others footballer pages have. Perfectly sufficient for stub. Pospeak (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Only 3 sources (5 are external links/databases). Interview does not demonstrate notability. This article cannot be compared with others, where sources proving notability may exist but they are just not used, while here there are none such sources. If you know about a page, where you doubt the existence of significant coverage, you can nominate it for deletion, and do not use it to defend existence of this one.
- I am asking user GiantSnowman, who also mentioned "delete", to elaborate on "no evidence of notability". The author of this article is not interested in hearing it from me. FromCzech (talk) 13:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- External links are irrelevant - what we need are detailed, significant in-line references. Do we have that here? GiantSnowman 14:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I assume that you don't know much about the Czech media, so I'll explain it to you. Znoj-tyden.cz is a weekly newspaper from the Znojmo District with more than 20 years of tradition. It is the most read newspapers in the region with almost 6,000 followers on Facebook. More than three and a half million people visit Denik.cz for news every month and with 1.8 million readers, it is the most read printed newspaper in the Czech Republic. Again, these references are perfectly sufficient for stub and demonstrate notability, because what else should demonstrate it more than an interview in the most widely read newspaper in the country? If you disagree with this, then name me which sources you think are notable. And consider that this is a player from a minor league team, so he's unlikely to get into Sports Illustrated or L'Équipe like the vast majority of players. Pospeak (talk) 05:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Znojemský deník is a branch of Deník.cz of local importance. Similarly, Znoj-tyden is also only a local media. All the sources used, apart from the databases, write about an 18-year-old boy who scored a goal on his professional debut, which is certainly a grateful topic for club pages and local media, but does nothing to support what makes this boy so significant that he deserves his own page in the encyclopedia. Their content is, first of all, one event, not the career and life of the person in question, primarily because his career and life are still ahead of him. But how few games and minutes he's played, and that he hasn't played in a professional competition since September 2022, speaks loudly against his importance. FromCzech (talk) 06:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your problem is that you are trashing other people's resources, while the pages you created have the same ones. Yes, this is how denik.cz works, that it has local editors, but that does not change the fact that it is an important source that is widely cited. Pospeak (talk) 06:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was just clarifying the mystification about the intraregional impact of these media. Otherwise, I have no problem with their reliability. If these sources supported the significance of the player, it would be fine, but they only write about his debut. FromCzech (talk) 06:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- The fact that he made his debut at such a young age and scored a goal is significant in itself, which is why these articles were written about him. Deník.cz is a medium whose reach in the sports section is nationwide, and I emphasize again that articles from its regional editorial offices are widely cited. Pospeak (talk) 07:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was just clarifying the mystification about the intraregional impact of these media. Otherwise, I have no problem with their reliability. If these sources supported the significance of the player, it would be fine, but they only write about his debut. FromCzech (talk) 06:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Please note that the locality of the coverage has no relevance to the subjects notability. A proposal to reject local sources from showing a subjects notability was last rejected in 2018. Alvaldi (talk) 15:41, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your problem is that you are trashing other people's resources, while the pages you created have the same ones. Yes, this is how denik.cz works, that it has local editors, but that does not change the fact that it is an important source that is widely cited. Pospeak (talk) 06:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- And the recently added iDNES.cz does not write about him, it is only a passing mention. FromCzech (talk) 06:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- This does not mean that this resource cannot be used. If only articles about players were used, then you have to delete half of the articles. Pospeak (talk) 06:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- It can be used, but is irrelevant to the notability discussion. That's all. FromCzech (talk) 06:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Notability discussion is supported by 8 additional references and 3 external links, which is clearly more than many other sites, even those created by you. That's all. Pospeak (talk) 07:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- It can be used, but is irrelevant to the notability discussion. That's all. FromCzech (talk) 06:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- This does not mean that this resource cannot be used. If only articles about players were used, then you have to delete half of the articles. Pospeak (talk) 06:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Znojemský deník is a branch of Deník.cz of local importance. Similarly, Znoj-tyden is also only a local media. All the sources used, apart from the databases, write about an 18-year-old boy who scored a goal on his professional debut, which is certainly a grateful topic for club pages and local media, but does nothing to support what makes this boy so significant that he deserves his own page in the encyclopedia. Their content is, first of all, one event, not the career and life of the person in question, primarily because his career and life are still ahead of him. But how few games and minutes he's played, and that he hasn't played in a professional competition since September 2022, speaks loudly against his importance. FromCzech (talk) 06:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I assume that you don't know much about the Czech media, so I'll explain it to you. Znoj-tyden.cz is a weekly newspaper from the Znojmo District with more than 20 years of tradition. It is the most read newspapers in the region with almost 6,000 followers on Facebook. More than three and a half million people visit Denik.cz for news every month and with 1.8 million readers, it is the most read printed newspaper in the Czech Republic. Again, these references are perfectly sufficient for stub and demonstrate notability, because what else should demonstrate it more than an interview in the most widely read newspaper in the country? If you disagree with this, then name me which sources you think are notable. And consider that this is a player from a minor league team, so he's unlikely to get into Sports Illustrated or L'Équipe like the vast majority of players. Pospeak (talk) 05:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Additional references were added to increase notability, articles from the most widespread newspapers in the Czech Republic. Will I get a "keep" statement from you now? Pospeak (talk) 06:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- External links are irrelevant - what we need are detailed, significant in-line references. Do we have that here? GiantSnowman 14:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- What is unclear about the keep statement? As I wrote earlier, 8 sources (containing one full-length interview) is more than many others footballer pages have. Perfectly sufficient for stub. Pospeak (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not changing anyone's opinion, I'm just trying to spark a discussion because the post was unclear. It's the quality of the sources that matters, not the quantity. And that was nowhere near achieved in this case, as I analyze above. FromCzech (talk) 12:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why do you feel the need to change someone's free opinion? This is a democratic discussion (which would not be necessary if you were not a deleting hardliner). Three references and five external links prefectly demonstrate notability. Pospeak (talk) 12:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @21.Andromedae: Can you elaborate more on your point? FromCzech (talk) 13:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You mean draftify per above? I would be OK with that, a reasonable compromise. Currently only three sources are used, one is about his father not him, one is about his debut, which doesn't demonstrate any notability, and one is about his club's success, not about him. FromCzech (talk) 18:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as I don't see a consensus. It would help to see a source review, ideally in a table.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:32, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Fails WP:GNG due to lack of WP:SIGCOV. Alvaldi (talk) 12:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Keep – The secondary sources added by Pospeak may show significant coverage to pass GNG. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 12:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Source review Here is my review of the nine sources currently in the article.
Source assessment table: prepared by User:Alvaldi
| ||||
| Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| https://www.oefb.at/Profile/Spieler/1168966 |  Austrian Football Association
|
|
List of stats
|
✘ No |
| https://www.livesport.cz/hrac/kohoutek-ota/CzW5lcRP/ | ? | Probably
|
List of stats
|
✘ No |
| https://znojemsky.denik.cz/fotbal-druha-liga/kohoutek-rozjasal-brno-i-otce-prijemny-pocit-reagoval-dlouholety-sef-znojma-2021.html | Newspaper
|
Probably
|
? Is from 22 November 2021, covers his first match and is partly behind paywall. | ? Unknown |
| https://www.fczbrno.cz/clanek.asp?id=VIDEO-Stal-jsem-na-dobrem-miste-v-dobry-cas-usmival-se-Kohoutek-7843 | Club website
|
Probably
|
Is from 22 November 2021, covers his first match.
|
✘ No |
| https://www.msfl.cz/hrac/ota-kohoutek | League website
|
Probably
|
List of stats
|
✘ No |
| https://www.idnes.cz/fotbal/domaci-souteze/fotbal-prostejov-druha-liga-start-sezony.A230302_154300_fot_dsouteze_ald | Newspaper
|
Probably
|
Mentions him once in references on him being loaned.
|
✘ No |
| https://www.fotbal.cz/repre/hrac/hraci/16333344 | Football Association of the Czech Republic
|
Probably
|
List of stats
|
✘ No |
| http://znoj-tyden.cz/sport/ota-kohoutek-jeste-dva-dny-potom-jsem-mel-husinu/ | Newspaper
|
Probably
|
Is from 5 December 2021 and is mostly interview with a little bit of prose regarding his debut less than two weeks before.
|
✘ No |
| https://www.fczbrno.cz/zapas.asp?ID=Zbrojovka-s-jistotou-postupu-v-kapse-prehrala-doma-Trinec-4524 | Club website
|
Probably
|
Doesn't mention him
|
✘ No |
| This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}. | ||||
- What is non-independent on football association and league sites? Are they the player's employer? I can admit that the problem may be with the club sites, although they are also quite commonly used as a resource. The fact that the articles appeared in previous years does not mean that they do not meet significant coverage. As I've written before, these articles were created by a player becoming interesting by scoring a goal on his league debut. So it wasn't just the first match. If he hadn't scored a goal, nobody would have written about him or interviewed him. Evaluating signaficant coverage for sources that are statistics is nonsense. These are there as support, although (again) they are national association and league profile pages (ie resources with a national reach). In conclusion, I would add that there is also a yellow evaluation color for partially meet. By your standards, half of Wikipedia should disappear. Pospeak (talk) 05:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think the association and league are regarded on the same level as the employer because they all have a similar vested interest in promoting "their" players. They are not unreliable per se, so they can be used (i.e. not be thrown out/"disappear"), but not independent either. Geschichte (talk) 06:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the argument of promoting "their" players (who are not in any employment relationship with the association or league) is exaggerated. We can say ad absurdum that the newspaper's activity is motivated by self-promotion with the help of readership, which brings profit from web advertising. Pospeak (talk) 07:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Per WP:SPORTBASIC, listings in database sources does not go towards establishing notability and neither do sources from team sites and governing sports bodies. My point with the dates on the non-database sources is that even if they were significant, which they ain't, they would fail WP:SUSTAINED as a brief bursts of news coverage several years ago regarding a players debut with no continuing coverage indicates that the player just isn't notable. Alvaldi (talk) 10:17, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I wrote earlier, sources that are statistics are listed as support. We can easily move them to external sources. Newer references from 2022 and 2023 have been added to support notability. Pospeak (talk) 11:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, there is nothing wrong with having database sources in articles to support statements within the article (for example, that the subject scored x many goals during a specific season). However, they do not count towards establishing that the player is notable. For this article to be kept, it has to been shown that the subject has received significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject (no team or league websites, no quotes from coaches or teammates etc.) over a sufficiently significant period of time. Brief burst of articles regarding his debut over a span of few days or trivial mentions is not enough. Alvaldi (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- If I leave out the team, league and association pages, there are still 4 newspaper articles (from 2021-2023). I note that these media have a nationwide reach. The articles are not only about his debut, but also the following events in his career. I would encourage all reviewers to look at other players' sites that are created and the number and quality of resources. Then you will find that the discussion about this player is pointless. Pospeak (talk) 13:42, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Two of those newspaper sources [1][2] trivial mention him once each. The other two mention him only in relation of one event (his debut) and are written in a span of few days. That simply is not enough to pass WP:GNG. Alvaldi (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- We disagree on what is notable. This waste of resources, in the context of other footballers' sites, is undignified. First of all, it is allegedly a small number of sources, then their reach is questioned (without the authors knowing a single Czech medium), and finally, the problem is that they were published a short time after each other. It is a clear attempt to delete this article regardless of its constant improvement. Pospeak (talk) 16:41, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Two of those newspaper sources [1][2] trivial mention him once each. The other two mention him only in relation of one event (his debut) and are written in a span of few days. That simply is not enough to pass WP:GNG. Alvaldi (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with having database sources in articles to support statements within the article (for example, that the subject scored x many goals during a specific season). However, they do not count towards establishing that the player is notable. – Exactly! That's why I've been replacing them with closest reliable sources I could find, especially regarding the footballer's debut and first goal. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 15:38, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- If I leave out the team, league and association pages, there are still 4 newspaper articles (from 2021-2023). I note that these media have a nationwide reach. The articles are not only about his debut, but also the following events in his career. I would encourage all reviewers to look at other players' sites that are created and the number and quality of resources. Then you will find that the discussion about this player is pointless. Pospeak (talk) 13:42, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, there is nothing wrong with having database sources in articles to support statements within the article (for example, that the subject scored x many goals during a specific season). However, they do not count towards establishing that the player is notable. For this article to be kept, it has to been shown that the subject has received significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject (no team or league websites, no quotes from coaches or teammates etc.) over a sufficiently significant period of time. Brief burst of articles regarding his debut over a span of few days or trivial mentions is not enough. Alvaldi (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I wrote earlier, sources that are statistics are listed as support. We can easily move them to external sources. Newer references from 2022 and 2023 have been added to support notability. Pospeak (talk) 11:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Per WP:SPORTBASIC, listings in database sources does not go towards establishing notability and neither do sources from team sites and governing sports bodies. My point with the dates on the non-database sources is that even if they were significant, which they ain't, they would fail WP:SUSTAINED as a brief bursts of news coverage several years ago regarding a players debut with no continuing coverage indicates that the player just isn't notable. Alvaldi (talk) 10:17, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the argument of promoting "their" players (who are not in any employment relationship with the association or league) is exaggerated. We can say ad absurdum that the newspaper's activity is motivated by self-promotion with the help of readership, which brings profit from web advertising. Pospeak (talk) 07:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think the association and league are regarded on the same level as the employer because they all have a similar vested interest in promoting "their" players. They are not unreliable per se, so they can be used (i.e. not be thrown out/"disappear"), but not independent either. Geschichte (talk) 06:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.