Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ashley yoursmile! 03:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China

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WP:TNT this article is basically just expounding the conspiracy theories promoted by Falun Gong and it's proponents. Whatever value this article used to have is no longer, WP:NPOV and WP:VERIFY are sorely lacking. Even the title is disputed because there is no evidence of this actually happening. - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 17:13, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:17, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep. This is a notable topic independet of whether it is a widespread conspiracy hoax as asserted by RuleTheWiki. Scholarly articles have been published about it,[1][2] and prominent news pieces dedicated to it.[3][4][5] The topic satisfies WP:GNG as there are multiple in-depth sources writing about it. Binksternet (talk) 19:03, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Refs [1] and [2] are NOT secondary sources and cannot be used to make such a claim of this magnitude see WP:PRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY. Refs [3], [4] and [5] are relaying reports and crucially are neutral as to whether this is actually occurring in the first place and the last ref is not even about Falun Gong specifically. [6] explains this as a reputable outlet publishing original research. - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 02:35, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - even if we take the article in its current state, it is cited to several upon several reliable sources, all of which are covering the subject in a non-trivial manner. The article is highly informative and covers a difficult subject. The nominator clearly finds this topic offensive but we need to remember that Wikipedia is not censored; see WP:NOTCENSORED. To just completely delete all of this info would completely go against the values of the project. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:42, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Slander. Just slander. I do not find this article offensive, what i find about this article is the astonishing amount of WP:BIAS and WP:NPOV that is used for example multiple times the 'Victims of Communism Memorial' scholar Ethan Gutmann is used multiple times. Hardly an independent or unbiased source along with many other outlets affiliated with Falun Gong. I am hardly one to support the CCP but we must adhere to basic standards of facts on these issues and while it was once true that organs were harvested from prisoners they are no longer and it was not clear that Falun Gong was targeted in the first place. - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 02:38, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep, clearly passes WP:GNG. I’m also not so sure that WP:RS back up the OP’s assertion that these are "conspiracy theories promoted by Falun Gong and it's proponents” @RuleTheWiki: do you have a source for that? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:09, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
[7], the Kilgour–Matas report article is actually pretty good at outlining how flaky the accusations are and also that you will not find many reputable human rights scholars substantiating these claims. - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 02:43, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I only see one mention of conspiracy in there "Wei Guoxin, public relations director at Tianjin First Center Hospital, which runs the transplant center, said accusations that China used organs from Falun Gong practitioners were “ridiculous” and part of a conspiracy against the country. But she did not respond to subsequent requests for data on the transplants carried out at the center or the number of foreign patients served.” Perhaps you meant to link a different article? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:48, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just because it doesn't explicitly say 'conspiracy theory' doesn't mean that the claims made by Falun Gong are anywhere near substantiated in comparison to the well-founded claims of the Uyghur genocide. The main reason i am proposing this AfD is because there is a systematic obfuscation of the truth and shocking amount of bias insofar as the article should be WP:TNT'ed - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 04:06, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It needs to explicitly say conspiracy theory because thats what you said. Not adequately substantiated =/= conspiracy theory. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:52, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This is not a conspiracy theory. Organ harvesting in China is well known. But even if it were one, the allegations are so notable and well sourced that they deserve the page. My very best wishes (talk) 01:48, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This page is about SPECIFICALLY Falun Gong members being targeted for Organ harvesting which no one has ever substantiated that they were SPECIFICALLY targeted - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 02:45, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quick check shows that sources #1 and #2 on the page (I did not check others) describe such claims specifically about members of FG. Yes, they apparently also target other prisoners, political and not only political. My very best wishes (talk) 03:06, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ref [5] is from a scholar with the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation and many others cite the China Tribunal which has worrying links to the Epoch Times. - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 04:02, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also i was referencing the Organ transplantation in China page when responding to you. Just as a note. - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 09:30, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Sun8908 _Talk 09:21, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The article is sourced by some reliable sources. It does have "Chinese government response" section. It would pretty much be it if the Chinese government does not have further comment. The article might still need cleanup (for neutrality) but WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP. Also, it doesn't seem to be a reliable source explicitly says that it is a conspiracy theory. This topic regarding Falun Gong practitioners' incidents is clearly notable. Sun8908 _Talk 09:49, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Overwhelmingly supported by solid sources. Boud (talk) 13:36, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, this and the main Falun Gong article are some of the most incredibly astroturfed pages on wikipedia. Deku link (talk) 06:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Conspiracy theories do not disqualify a topic from being on Wikipedia. Though possibly moving the article scope to organ harvesting in general could solve some of the issues but that is out of scope of this AfD. Jumpytoo Talk 04:01, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.