Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ogasawara Shōsai

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ogasawara Shōsai[edit]

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A BLP prod that was previously in place was declined by another user because the subject is not living. The subject appears to not meet WP:BASIC. Source searches in Google Books and news searches are only providing passing mentions (e.g. [1]). NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 17:33, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - As I mentioned to the person who placed the BLP prod on the article, I think [2] is the Japanese Wikipedia page for him (but it is hard to tell for sure, since I'm using Google Translate, and it doesn't do a good job translating Japanese). I think it would require someone fluent in Japanese searching Japanese sources to tell if he is notable or not. Calathan (talk) 21:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The Japanese wikipedia page has a different title because his real name was Ogasawara Hidekiyo, with Shōsai being just his common name. The Japanese page is relatively well sourced for a Japanese wikipedia page, though most of them are print, not internet sources. This one from the Kumamoto Prefecture is useful, however: [3]. It also seems he has been a somewhat popular figure in pop culture, appearing as a character in a number of novels and films like Samurai Reincarnation. I've seen this with AfDs for Japanese medieval figures, but unfortunately there's not a lot of RS about such people on the net: to avoid a bias towards the net and really find out what historians think of their notability, you have to go to print sources, especially in Japanese. I can do that in a few days, but not now.Michitaro (talk) 15:03, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 02:34, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. In the absence of solid sourcing or in-depth coverage, it's hard to see how the notability criteria are satisfied here. --DAJF (talk) 08:48, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. This was a bit hard to decide. I checked reference books in the library and, while a few mention him, none had entries devoted to him. But clearly he is often mentioned in Japanese books, as evidenced by the Google Books search [4]. I think this is because he remains notable today less because of the actual historical figure, than because of the narrative he was involved in—the killing of Hosokawa Gracia on her request when, as a Christian, she could not commit suicide—which has become the source for many non-fiction and fictional accounts. The Kumamoto page is an RS ([5]), but much of what else you find are more narrativized, in works by famous authors such as Ryunosuke Akutagawa [6], Ryotaro Shiba [7], Eiji Yoshikawa [8], etc. He also appears as a character in film and television, played by such well-known actors as Kyusaku Shimada [9]. I thought about the argument that perhaps he is notable only for one event (WP:BIO1E), but even that allows pages for people with major roles in events (whether this is a major event or not is debatable, but clearly it has often been retold).It's hard to judge whether all this is "significant," but in the end, I think it is significant/notable that he remains alive in the popular imagination 400 years after his death. Michitaro (talk) 14:27, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 02:23, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, per Michitaro's analysis. Defer to the expert here. --do ncr am 02:04, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as a key player in mythologised historical event. Alternatively merge and redirect to a section in Hosokawa Gracia. Stuartyeates (talk) 10:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.