Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Official Tour Wins - Tour era

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Randykitty (talk) 13:58, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Official Tour Wins - Tour era[edit]

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WP:OR and not referenced(For the win totals. The only references pertain to the history of various golf tours]] for any of this. The fact is, the PGA Tour while not created till 1968( Actually the name goes back to the 1970s. It was Tournament Players Division before then) counts wins by players by prior to 1968. Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player's win totals on this list are a creation of the article creator. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Golf-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - This is really something that would go under WP:OR so I agree with the nom here. HawkAussie (talk) 04:14, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Potential Keep - I don't think there is anything wrong with having this article as such. There are as discussed a few issues to resolve, which I think Oogglywoogly should be given the opportunity to address. The main issues are

As with others, I completely disagree with the PGA Tour figures, which do not match List of golfers with most PGA Tour wins or the PGA Tour's own records.
There is not adequate references for the figures shown in the table.
The intro needs some better structuring and wording, i.e. a shorter punchier lead, narrative that stays on topic, and remove phrasing like "the purpose of the article is" etc

I do think that this article can be put together and not be [[WP:OR}]]

And generally I'd say thanks to Oogglywoogly for contributing to wikipedia, don't be put off by challenges like this! Jopal22 (talk) 11:43, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete – I have never heard of a player's worldwide win total being counted in such a way that includes these six tours and only these six. That in itself implies that this is OR. To make this into a list of most wins anywhere doesn't seem practical (since it's so hard to find reliable sources), and I don't see any other way to make the article viable. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 14:07, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as OR. Tewapack (talk) 15:18, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some of my reactions:

1) While the PGA Tour officially does count victories before 1969 it is not especially reliable source actually. This unreliability has come up very recently as there has been a lot of media attention pertaining to Tiger Woods potentially breaking Sam Snead's record for most tour wins. Snead's amount of victories is not considered precisely accurate according to all articles that I have read. For example, an writer for Golf Digest noted that Snead's actual amount of victories should be at 73. Several of his "official" wins were in very small fields (16 players) and others, by today's standards, exhibitions (4 players). Also, one of the events he won, the 1950 Pebble Beach tournament, was in fact a tie between four players as darkness prevented a playoff - an unthinkable outcome nowadays.[1]. Another writer for Golf Digest noted that Snead's "final" official win total vacillated from 81 in the 1970s to 84 in the 1980s to 82 in the 1990s.[2]

I think is also especially relevant, given the contents of this Wikipedia page, that the author of the first article notes that many PGA Tour records before 1968 were lost during the break from the PGA of America. With this information it is difficult to accept the PGA Tour's list as the gold standard.

2) I will admit that this page appears somewhat "original." I am new to creating pages on wikipedia and this is by far my most "ambitious" page. I guess I wanted to create it in the first place because I thought the need was there but no page existed. I wasn't trying to overstep wikipedia's guidelines or anything. I created it because you often hear about a golfer who plays around the world (e.g. Norman, Els) and the total career wins never seems to be consistent in the media. For example with Norman: The World Golf Hall of Fame has Norman with 86 "international wins."[3] The British Open's official website has Norman with 69 "career worldwide victories."[4] A website called Top End Sports states that Norman has "over 85 international championships."[5] Norman's own website states that he has 91 "professional victories."[6] The same problem with Els.

I also feel that the "big six tours" is a discreet phenomenon. I come across it in the media and on wikipedia. The fact that these tours were the first full members of the International Federation of PGA Tours in the late 1990s and remain the only ones 20 years later helps substantiate this concept.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/forget-sam-snead-tiger-woods-already-has-the-tour-record-for-wins-seriously
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/use-the-sam-snead-criteria-for-wins-tiger-woods-actually-has-95-tour-titles-well-explain
http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/greg-norman/
https://www.theopen.com/players/greg--norman
https://www.topendsports.com/athletes/golf/norman-greg.htm
http://www.shark.com/the-shark/tournament-victories/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oogglywoogly (talk • contribs) 20:53, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are trying to put together a table like the Open era stats in tennis, but with no single organisation overseeing golf, I think it will be impossible. Unless you can find a reliable source that agrees with your totals, this will be deleted I'm afraid. It seems above you are admitting this is subjective original research. Jopal22 (talk) 12:44, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Comment This article is preposterous WP:OR and I will state it for one simple reason. It omits Major Championship wins prior to 1969 for Nicklaus, Trevino, Player. Now tell me how how subtracting major wins make this list credible?...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:28, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Another comment The above comment says- 'Also, one of the events he won, the 1950 Pebble Beach tournament, was in fact a tie between four players as darkness prevented a playoff - an unthinkable outcome nowadays.[1] One of those tours that has wins listed, the European Tour, had a 1986 event and a 2002 tournament end in a tie. Both the LPGA Tour and the Senior PGA Tours have had events end in a tie in the time span of this article. Unthinkable isn't exactly accurate....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Another comment @Oogglywoogly: What's this with Langer and Ballesteros win totals on the European Tour. The ET says they are 42 and 50 respectively yet you have them as 40 and 46. Why? Are you subtracting from Langer because two of his wins are ties? The ET counts them, so again this list is Original Research. It isn't just that but revisionist history″ also. Gary Player isn't a Grand Slam winner by your methodology because his US Open championship win was in 1965....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:37, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You have to add in the major and WGC's seperately. The PGA Tour and ET columns are shown excluding this. Anyway, think we have got the point. Let's cut Oogglywoogly some slack and not discourage him, as new golf editors should be welcome! Jopal22 (talk) 18:04, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Delete per above. Also I'm not sure where the South African and Australian totals come from but our articles eg List of golfers with most Sunshine Tour wins are sometimes unreferenced and relying on them is not a good idea. Nigej (talk) 05:32, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - This cobbling together of stats to come up with new wins totals is veryt much the definition of original research. -- Whpq (talk) 19:20, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A final response: I largely created this link to compare achievements of successful contemporary international golfers from around the world who play on the "big 6" tours. No good information had existed before which is why I created it. I believe the "big 6" is a coherent concept as these are the only full members on the International Federation of PGA Tours and sanction the Official World Golf Ranking.

Jopal22 referenced tennis' Open Era since the late 1960s. I do not think the ATP is devaluing, say, the 100+ victories Rod Lavar earned before the Open Era by not including them in their all-time wins list. Rather they created a reliable list to compare achievements in a certain era. A cut off-point needs to be created at a certain point and some players' wins/achievements will be truncated on the particular list. Similarly, I am not trying to undermine the achievements of Player and Nicklaus pre-1969. Rather a cut-off point needs to be created to compare achievements between contemporaries and this cut-off will always be "arbitrary" to some degree. For example, let's say we change the cut-off line to 1955 to ensure that all victories of Palmer, Nicklaus, and Player are included. Ok, but then most of the victories of Snead and Hogan are not included. This "problem" could go on forever.

Also regarding the Open Era... Many professional sports organizations advanced during the late '60s and early '70s. In tennis the aforementioned Open Era distinguishes modern tennis from older tennis. The NFL's merger with the AFL in 1970 helps bisect pro football's history. Likewise, the "expansion era" in NHL started in 1967 where the NHL added teams for the first time since the 1920s. This terminology helps distinguish these sports from their pre-modern pasts. Golf, I think, changed similarly with the creation of independent, well-organized tours in the late 1960s and early 1970s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oogglywoogly (talk • contribs) 00:01, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Per above OR, sources do not relate to actual plays. Nikoo.Amini (talk) 23:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.