Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Northwestern–Notre Dame football rivalry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Boldly closing as a non-admin closure - no arguments for deletion, even nominator stipulates that he has no issue with the article itself and is interested in changing the article title. Requested move is the correct process for that. (non-admin closure) Go Phightins! 19:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Northwestern–Notre Dame football rivalry[edit]

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I believe the article is misnamed, and "frequent opponent" and "Rival" are not adequately defined in many college football articles, especially when it pertains to Notre Dame. Since Notre Dame is not in a conference, there tends to be much more debate and also greater license by Notre Dame's opponents to consider themselves a "rival" of Notre Dame. But where does it end? On the talk page I proposed to change the name of the article to "Northwestern-Notre Dame series" or to delete the page entirely. Tedmoseby (talk) 05:40, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would further add that this series does not adhere to the Wikipedia definition of rivalry due to its infrequent nature.Tedmoseby (talk) 05:52, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Tedmoseby (talk) 05:42, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep While the rivalry has not been played in many years, and is no longer being actively scheduled, notability is not temporary. These two teams played each other regularly for a large part of the 20th century. There was even a trophy (the "Shillelagh Trophy") that was exchanged between the two schools for many years. Ejgreen77 (talk) 06:12, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Ejgreen77.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:08, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Ejgreen. There are many rivalries that are no longer played. This one has been idle for a while (though set to resume in 2014). As noted by Ejgreen, the recency of a series does not determine its notability as a rivalry. ND and Northwestern began playing in 1889 and continued a rivalry through at least the 1940s. The New York Times wrote: "The Notre Dame-Northwestern rivalry is the oldest in the Irish book" and noted that Knute Rockne offered a shilelagh as a trophy to be kept by the winner of the rivalry game. See Notre Dame Tops Wildcats by 27-7, The New York Times, Oct. 13, 1968. Additional material commenting on the "rivalry" includes: (1) Northwestern, Notre Dame set for home-and-home series, Newsday, April 14, 2011 ("Northwestern announced today that it will renew its rivalry with Notre Dame in a home-and-home series beginning in 2014."); (2) Notre Dame And Northwestern To Resume Ancient Grid Rivalry, The Hartford Courant, Dec 16, 1956 ("One of the oldest football rivalries in the nation will be revived in 1959 ...); (4) Notre Dame, N. U. Renew Rivalry Today, Chicago Daily Tribune, April 15, 1939; (5) NU, Notre Dame will resume their rivalry, Chicago Tribune, May 25, 1982 ("[T]he Wildcats are going to resume their football and basketball rivalry with Notre Dame."); (6) Notre Dame Will Invade Northwestern, Rochester Sentinel, Sep 18, 1970 ("Parseghian has a perfect eight-game record in the Notre Dame Northwestern rivalry"); (7) Notre Dame Routs Northwestern, 21-0, The New York Times, Nov. 13, 1932 ("Notre Dame's football machine, heated to the boiling point by one of the most intense rivalries in athletic competition, flattened Northwestern today ..."); (8) Purple and Irish Tangle, Toledo News-Bee, Nov. 10, 1932 ("Here is a game which is fast becoming the classic of the middle west because of the rivalry existing between the two schools."); (9) Wildcats Are Aching to Spill Notre Dame, The Milwaukee Journal, Nov. 10, 1943 ("The 54 year old rivalry between Northwestern and Notre Dame ..."). Cbl62 (talk) 15:47, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

rename Again, I think you guys are misunderstanding "rival" vs "frequent opponent." If this is a rivalry, why is it not scheduled more regularly? Yes, it has been renewed; for a whole 2 games in non-consecutive years. Don't rivals want to prioritize a football series because of their intense bond between the schools and fanbases and subsequently schedule each other much more frequently? Why is Notre Dame not listed as a rival on the Northwestern football page and vice versa? I understand the recentism argument, but to me, a simple question of "who is/are Notre Dame's rival(s)? has never included Northwestern. This is again, because Notre Dame is not in a conference, and every single opponent seems to think their school has something special going with the Irish. According to the criteria you site (they schedule each other), Notre Dame is not only a rival with Northwestern, but also Penn State, Air Force, Georgia Tech, Pittsburgh, Miami, in addition to the rivals of USC, Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, Boston College, Stanford, Navy and Army. How can one school have a full schedule of rivalries? It dilutes the meaning of the term and it's absurd to think one school has this many rivalries, especially when they are one-sided on not reciprocated. I have no issue with the article itself, but I think it should renamed to "Northwestern-Notre Dame series." Tedmoseby (talk) 19:18, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By saying, "I have no issue with the article itself," you have admitted that this article has absolutely no place at AfD. If your proposal is limited to renaming the article, AfD is not the proper forum. In any event, the Northwestern–Notre Dame football rivalry does qualify as a notable "rivalry" and was described as such for several decades in major media sources such as The New York Times and Chicago Tribune. Indeed, item (8) above notes that during Knute Rockne era some considered the annual game to be "the classic of the middle west because of the rivalry existing between the two schools. Cbl62 (talk) 20:13, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody here is arguing that every team that Notre Dame schedules (or that any other program schedules) constitutes a rivalry. To lend some objective data to the issue, ND has actually played more games against Northwestern (47) than against more recent rivals like Michigan (40), Georgia Tech (34), Air Force (29), Stanford (27), and Boston College (22), and comparable to Army (50). Cbl62 (talk) 20:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for placing it under AFD. Can you direct me to a place where this would be more appropriate for a renaming? As to the term rivalry, I still think it no longer applies to Northwestern. If it did, why do the schools not schedule each other more frequently? And honestly. aside from Michigan and perhaps Boston College, none of those other teams you mention are rivals either. Perhaps it can be renamed "historic rivalry" and that could also apply to Army. These series are all but defunct and should reflect that. I understand the concept of recentism can apply, but is it not also misleading to the uninformed reader to state that these series are rivalries when they most certainly no longer are as such? Tedmoseby (talk) 20:52, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Again, WP:NTEMP. Just because it's not a rivalry now, and it hasn't been a rivalry in your lifetime, doesn't mean that it never was a rivalry. A rivalry can lay dormant for a hundred years, and it would still be considered a rivalry, per WP:NTEMP. I would also add that our readers are intelligent human beings who are perfectly capable of looking at the results table (or the infobox) and deciphering when and how often the rivalry was last played. Now, perhaps it would be better to change the lead from "The Northwestern–Notre Dame football rivalry is an American college football rivalry. . . " to something like "The Northwestern–Notre Dame football rivalry is a former American college football rivalry. . . " I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to doing something like that. But, this isn't the venue for those types of changes. Ejgreen77 (talk) 01:34, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per excellent arguments and research by Ejgreen77 and Cbl62. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Proecedural keep nominator nor any other editor has made a single argument for deletion, only for renaming the article. That is not a deletion issue but an editing issue.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What's up with this AFD? It's been open for 20 days now... it should have been closed. IS something "mechanical" missing from the process?--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:23, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.