Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nizzardo Italians

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. MBisanz ^talk 04:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nizzardo Italians[edit]

The whole article is a mere piece of nationalist propaganda, started by the indefinetely blocked User:Brunodam to promote his views on the topic of Italian irredentism. The article hasn't evolved much since, in fact it's been tagged for NPOV for the past six months. The current revision includes a section about linguistics in the Nice region (making it for this part a content fork of Niçard) and, as already stated, nationalistic rants (when Italian irredentism already tries to cover the same argument in a more serious manner) Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso (talk) 14:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The term seems to be wholely made up. --neon white talk 18:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the term is not made up, at least not recently, Mussolini certainly seemed to be using it. While Italian irredentism does cover the Nizzardo, it is not in such great depth as irredentism is much broader than Nice. NPOV issues should be dealt with by editing, not by deleting the whole article. SpinningSpark 00:17, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: "Nizzardo" is just an adjective for Nice in Italian, in the book you cited the term is not used in the same way it's used in the wikipedia article I listed for deletion.--Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso (talk) 11:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article is necessary to give an account of Italian irredentist claims to Nice in the past centuries, which are part of history. But it should be modified, on these accounts: 1. The whole of present-day France and Italy was inhabited by people who spoke local languages, mostly Romance. In trade and administration, most of those used other Romance languages: French, Occitan, Catalan, Italian and Neapolitan -- and even Latin, in the early 2nd millennium. Nice was no exception. People in Nice spoke Niçart, a language closely related both to Occitan and Northern Italian local languages. The official language switched from Latin to Italian and French, the last two languages alternating in time. 2. A referendum was held in 1861 and more than 99% of the votes favored annexation to France. Garibaldi, a prominent Niçart, was disappointed. But with due respect, his position was always a minority one. 3. No doubt the centralist government of France repressed the local language and those in Nice who favored joining Italy (any state discourages separatism). But the language is now officialy protected, at least to some extent, and Nice's inhabitants are not currently displaying any propensity to become Italian. Even if it is difficult to point out exactly where it happens, on the whole the current article seem to incline towards considering the people of Nice as Italians -- which they are not, by their own choice.
Keep Well done and well documented article. I agree with Spinningspark.--DuilioM (talk) 15:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I regrettably have to take issue with the idea that this is a "well done and well documented article". It is entirely lacking in sources, and my attempts to find suitable reliable sources have turned up nothing at all, I'm afraid. It's pure OR, and as such it has to go. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - ethnic groups are inherently worthy of inclusion where possible (which includes here). Claims of things like OR appear baseless. Wily D 21:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Wily, if "claims of things like OR appear baseless", would you be kind enough to point out the reliable sources you are referring to? Many thanks. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 07:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The New York Times of March 29,1881 -for example- is a reliable source. It is not italian or french (and nobody can blame it to be irredentist). Please read [1]. It clearly states that "The Nizzards were quite as much Italians as the Genoese and their dialect was, if anything, nearer the Tuscan than is the harsh dialect of Genoa".--DuilioM (talk) 15:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The local language, traditionally spoken by most people in Nice until it was replaced by French in the 19th century, is known as Niçard, and it is generally considered a distinct subdialect of the Occitan language, not Italian. There was an interesting discussion about this at Talk:Niçard in the summer (bear in mind as you read that Merighi was one of the abundant socks created by the now-banned Brunodam, the creator of Nizzardo Italians). Now, what we are faced with here is two Wikipedia articles, Niçard and Nizzardo Italians, on essentially the same topic, either or both of which might or might not be inherently POV in their intent and content. We can only, as editors trying to compile a decent encyclopedia, look to the balance of scholarly opinion out there. This is, and has always been, that Niçard is not a dialect of Italian. I am firmly of the view that the article titled Nizzardo Italians is a content fork of Niçard created to espouse a particular POV, namely that "Nizzardo" is a subdialect of Italian, and that the local people are rightfully considered Italians. Well, if that were really the case I somehow doubt that in the 1860 referendum 27,003 people would vote to join France and just 345 to join Italy. So, to sum up, I reiterate my earlier view that this article should be deleted. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 16:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - 27,003 people would vote to join France. 345 to join Italy: the Nizzardo Italians: they existed, like Giuseppe Garibaldi!--MacLot (talk) 17:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's some impressive detail for someone who joined Wikipedia a month ago, made four edits in mainspace of which none related to the subject. I wish all new users were like you.--Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso (talk) 18:24, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The question is very simple, dear "Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso": the name of my family is Pastorelli, and my roots are in Nice. PS If "the details" are the numbers 27,003 and 345, please, see above my keep...--MacLot (talk) 08:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Yes during the twenty years of the fascist regime the case of Nizzardo Italians was used against France but Nizzardo italians were an part of the society so an article about them in wikipedia has to exist.User:Lucifero4

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.