Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicolas Plott

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The delete arguments point out that the article does not meet the general notability guideline due to a lack of significant coverage in reliable sources, with a consensus of established editors pointing this out. The keep arguments are largely very weak, do not base their arguments on wikipedia's policies and guidelines, with the only main argument being that the article passes WP:ENTERTAINER. However this is refuted by several of those supporting deletion, and those arguing for keeping have failed to produce reliable secondary sources. As such the consensus based on wikipedia's policies and guidelines is clear for deletion. Davewild (talk) 18:49, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nicolas Plott[edit]

Nicolas Plott (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Sources are weak. The article subject is allegedly notable for playing Starcraft and hosting coverage of Starcraft tournaments on GomTV, which is internet-only and not a television station in any of the traditionally understood meanings of the term. Note that this waas previously deleted when it was under the subject's nickname, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tasteless. This version uses some different sources, so is probably not eligible for speedy deletion as a recreation of deleted content. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - Also, imo, a speedy, though as long as we're here, and given the history, we might as well seek a more final determination. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 17:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Subject fails WP:GNG as he has not been the subject of substantial coverage in independent reliable sources. Pburka (talk) 18:27, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree. There's a good handful, but most of them are quite old or from relatively niche sites. Some exceptions; "Sons of Starcraft" kickstarter.com project, Up Close Gamers, Gosu Gamers. --BlueNovember (talk • contribs) 10:06, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per before. The sources have only gotten better since the last nomination, and WP:USEBYOTHERS and countering systemic bias (pro starcraft is a serious affair in Korea, Plott is the most prominent figure in the west associated with that aspect of Korean culture). de Bivort 21:54, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Could you please be more specific about how USEBYOTHERS improves the claim that the article subject is notable? It's not clear what you mean by mentioning it. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, in the last AfD, people said that the various databases at teamliquid are not reliable sources. But they are widely used in gaming articles, besides being a private wiki (some people had claimed that it was a wiki and therefore unreliable). de Bivort 03:33, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I see. I would argue that reliability is not relevant in that case. The site is a wiki that apparently seeks to cover all possible aspects of Starcraft. Therefore inclusion there, reliable or not, is not evidence of notability. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:25, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed, WP:USEBYOTHERS pertains to the argument that the TL databases are not reliable, which has been made by others, not the general notability claim. de Bivort 21:03, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions. (G·N·B·S·RS·Talk) • Gene93k (talk) 23:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actors, voice actors, comedians, opinion makers, models, and television personalities:
  1. Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions. checkY
  2. Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following. checkY
  3. Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment. checkY
I don't think that's really debatable. --BlueNovember (talk • contribs) 09:19, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Passes WP:ENTERTAINER as mentioned above. Marcus1979 (talk) 09:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Passes WP:ENTERTAINER, though the article could do with a rewrite. The Supreme Court (talk) 10:14, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - As mentioned above - Passes WP:ENTERTAINER. Guillane (talk) 11:13, 29 October 2011 (UTC)— Guillane (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Keep - To the Deleters, would you vote down a commentator on games like John Madden? StarCraft commentary/watching is a big thing Hasteur (talk) 13:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    John Madden has an extensive resume outside his career as a commentator, including a college football stint, a Super Bowl victory as an NFL coach, and a pitchman for at least half a dozen products in nationwide advertising campaigns. Further, he was a commentator for 29 years for games viewed worldwide by upwards of 90 million people, so your comparison of Plott to Madden is a bit off-the-mark. Horologium (talk) 17:10, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Known and passionately followed by hundreds of thousands of people. Has videos on internet with millions of hits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.14.227.71 (talk) 14:28, 29 October 2011 (UTC) — 108.14.227.71 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Keep - Notable viral personalities such as youtube stars have their own wikipedia page. This article details another one with a longer and more pronounced career who has a casting contract in South Korea and does professional commentary for MLG events and large South Korean events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.179.22.84 (talk) 14:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC) — 76.179.22.84 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • EZ Keep - Clearly notable article with great sources, and meets requirements of WP:ENTERTAINER. samrolken (talk) 15:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    To all the above, I am not aware of sportscasters ever having been described as "entertainers" before, they are usually considered to be in broadcasting like a news anchor but I suppose I could see how a "color man" could be considered somewhere in between. However, a bald assertion that he meets all points of that guideline is not sufficient. Proof from independent reliable sources is, as always, what is needed. For your reference, here are those points:
    1. Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions.
    2.Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.
    3. Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.
    He meets all those points, does he? He's the John Madden of South Korea? Surely there would be hundreds of sources, like there are regarding John Madden, if that was the case, S. Korea is the most plugged-in nation on earth, so there should be piles and piles of good usable reliable sources if he is is super famous as this sudden flood of keep voters is claiming. Bring on the giant pile of reliable sources and I'll gladly rescind my nomination. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:15, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Seems like if he meets the criteria for WP:ENTERTAINER, it doesn't matter that much if you think sportscasters are entertainers or not. de Bivort 21:03, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    What an utterly bizarre thing to say. If we determined that an article subject was a carpenter and not an athlete, would we then apply WP:ATHLETE anyway? Of course not. If he's not an entertainer then the guideline for entertainers is not relevant and we fall back on WP:N. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:48, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -A quick google search for 'tastosis' brings 67,900 results, as far as I'm aware this word isn't used for anything but the tasteless/artosis casting pair and doesn't appear to be a common misspelling. I think that's enough to be notable. Others have already posted some of the relevant links that are reliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.114.207 (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC) — 88.111.114.207 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Keep - Initial nomination is incorrect in its assertion that GomTV is "internet-only and not a television station in any of the traditionally understood meanings of the term." It is broadcasted on the ANIBOX network in Korea. Tasteless plays a prominent role in some of these broadcasts. [1]Rendon.smug (talk) 16:35, 29 October 2011 (UTC) — Rendon.smug (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
    I'm willing to believe that I'm wrong about GomTV, although a source or a link or something to back that assertion would be nice. Even if I am mistaken about that the rest of my nomination stands. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    You can see the GSL logo on the front page of the Anibox site, aniboxtv.com Protolink24 (talk) 16:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    As well as the announcement Here, which I attempted to link the original post. Rendon.smug (talk) 17:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe you guys know something the rest of us do not, this translation [1] mentions Starcraft tournaments being on something called "Annie box" but does not seem mention GomTV or Nick Plott. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:07, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes I know Korean. "Gom" means "Bear" and Google translate will obviously translate it literally. The GSL, produced by Gom TV is aired on AniBox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.79.159 (talk) 17:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Anibox is a Korean anime channel. This release is announcing that they will be airing GomTV's GSL tournament, which is the only major Starcraft 2 tournament in Korea at this time. As for the show that Tasteless is co-hosting, the description can be found here.Rendon.smug (talk) 17:28, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    please check your link, it appears to be referencing someone named Nicora A. Plott, I think you might find this more informative. 69.180.26.56 (talk) 17:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    You ask for reliable sources, but then say the sources that are given (i.e. [teamliquid.net]) aren't credible because it is a community site. It seems to me that you have not done any research into teamliquid. They actually publish articles about the community for the community, they do interviews and write blogs and columns. It is not all opinion pieces either, but news for the community is also reported through that site. Just because ESPN or other Major magazines don't cover the Esports scene does not make it any less viable than Baseball, Football, or other sports. So, please clarify what you want when you say sources, because I can go find sources, but they are all community/team sites. It is very much still in its infancy, but it is just like local journalism for sports teams. thank you 69.180.26.56 (talk) 18:15, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Keep"-has a huge unique fanbase, with an informative summary of his life on the wikipedia page. Can it be expanded? Yes. Does it deserve to be deleted? Not one little bit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cotcot2 (talk • contribs)
    I realize you just came off a three year hiatus to make this remark, so you may not be up to speed on current practices here, but please don't post your comments inside somebody else's,[2] and and please sign your posts. Thanks. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep- Nick "Tasteless" Plott is an e-sports caster for many events, including MLG in the US, which regularly receives over 100k concurrent viewers (more than the average HBO premiere) specifically for the game he casts, Starcraft 2. Mentions of this subject being niche are uninformed. The most populated Starcraft forum in the non-Korean scene is teamliquid.net with, at the time of writing this, 13,000 active users and over 50 staff. Nick has also done voice acting for a few very notable Korean films, along with his co-caster, Dan "Artosis" Stemkoski. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.65.49.114 (talk • contribs) — 99.65.49.114 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete. The references for this article are exceptionally weak, and the assertion of notability is weak at best. I count three press releases, and an open wiki in the citation list, and the rest of the other sources aren't really about the subject. The first link doesn't seem to link to anything at all relevant (it's some sort of list that doesn't reference either Plott or "tasteless", nor to his brother or the guy he allegedly beat in the first round), and a lot of the other links do the same thing; I don't know if they're broken, improperly formed, or require one to be logged in to the site to view, but as it stands now, there's very little verifiable information. Most of the links don't convey any information about Plott, they simply mention him as a commentator. FWIW, I don't see a whole lot of notability for his younger brother, Sean Plott, either; that article might be a candidate for deletion as well. Horologium (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Sean Plott may not be the best sourced article, but there is no doubt in my mind that he fulfills the requirements of WP:ENTERTAINER. There are articles featuring him from Forbes, NPR's "All Things Considered", and The Economist. Protolink24 (talk) 17:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Not even a question, keep. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.91.137.116 (talk) — 184.91.137.116 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete - Fails GNG --Cameron Scott (talk) 20:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep You should probably use (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL) which will yield articles on the google news (since he is commonly referred to as Tasteless and not as Nicolas Plott, this makes it even harder since tastelss is a relatively common word, though the article definitely needs a clean up. Bopditybop (talk) 20:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)— Bopditybop (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • comment - my keep is above, but I think this strengthens it and I'm adding it here so people notice.
    WP:CREATIVE indicates notability if "The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." As the main commentator, he has clearly played a major role in the English-language broadcasts, which are themselves a collective body of work that has been the subject of many articles and reviews. This is confirmed by this RS: [3] which also indicates he is an authority to which Reliable Sources defer for commentary. de Bivort 21:10, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    A two-sentence quote in an article about somebody else? Nobody is disputing that he is a commentator on Starcraft matters in Korea. What you need to find is not a source that quotes him, but rather a story about him. That is how notability is determined on Wikipedia. The idea that Starcraft commentary is a collective body of creative work is a somewhat unique interpretation of that guideline. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • weak Keep NPR's brief coverage and Forbes's coverage probably let's this cover the letter of the GNG, though the coverage is sketchy enough I'd !vote to delete if that's all there was. But a news archives search turns up huge numbers of in-passing references in RSes and more detailed coverage in things that probably aren't RSes. RS but trivial:[4], [5], [6],[7],[8]. Hobit (talk) 01:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Update to delete. As was pointed out to me the two best bits of coverage actually are for his brother, not him. Hobit (talk) 21:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Nicolas Plott has been a gigantic influence on the development and evolution of eSports, which has grown considerably in the recent years, especially outside of South Korea. As eSports like Starcraft II continue to grow, those who played a major role in its growth, such as Nicolas Plott, will need to be credited. The current rate of growth in eSports is phenominal, but if it were to taper off in the coming years, it would be reasonable for this page to deleted. I would urge that if nothing else, we retain this page for at least another year, and if it isn't obvious that Nicolas Plott is worthy of having his legacy recorded in Wikipedia by then, this page would be more eligible for deletion. Thelehmanlip (talk) 2:21, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep - He's made a pretty strong name in his field, that is e-sports, and certainly fits the definition for entertainer. MrPhelps (talk) 05:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Two more inactive users who suddenly came back just to participate in this AFD. There certainly have been a string of amazing coincidences here the last two days... Beeblebrox (talk) 17:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You nominate an article about one of the most prominent figures of the professional Starcraft community and don't expect people who are generally disinterested with Wikipedia's politics to weigh in? If you had seen one of the documentaries made about him you would know how popular he is. Rendon.smug (talk) 18:03, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What is odd is that people who are generally not interested, and/or have never edited here at all seem to be coming out of the woodwork just to participate here. How, if they are so uninterested, did they become aware of this discussion at all? Beeblebrox (talk) 18:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
All it takes is one person visiting the page to see the big box at the top and suddenly hundreds of people are discussing the article, Wikipedia's rules/policies and perceived similarities to mmo's, ect. People are strongly encouraged not to post unless they have new information to contribute and a working knowledge of the mechanics of the deletion process, but apparently some morons have slipped through the cracks. Rendon.smug (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Which leads me to ask: where is it that this other discussion you refer to is taking place? Beeblebrox (talk) 18:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yesterday a post about this made the front-page of SCReddit. The original post was likely inappropriate under canvassing, but those of us who are active users in reddit and familiar with Wikipedia's policies have attempted to run damage control in that regards.Rendon.smug (talk) 19:19, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, that would be inappropriate canvassing I'm seeing there. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As that may be, the post was made by a non-wiki regular in good faith, and any of us who stayed around are legitimate users also acting in good faith. It would be quite a shame to let the discussion of the page for a person so influential in the community be tainted by one overzealous and frankly clueless Redditor. Rendon.smug (talk) 23:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you've overlooked the fact that both the NPR and Forbes stories are about Sean Plott, not Nicolas. The NPR story does not even mention his name a single time. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did miss that. !vote updated. Hobit (talk) 21:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed vote to Delete or Merge. Nick Plott is undoubtedly a prominent figure in Starcraft professional gaming. As a player he was briefly world class. As a broadcaster, he is the most famous Starcraft colour commentator. He has been well known in the esport community for at least 3 - 4 years. Recently, he was featured in a documentary, and he's made other appearances in the media (I think in a National Geographic documentary in 2004/05. Has been interviewed by CNN a few times.) I don't know if he deserves his own page, but he belongs on wikipedia. Maybe on GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League's page? FYI, I came to this page after reading StarCraft_II:_Wings_of_Liberty#Professional_competition, which led me to team Evil_Geniuses, which had a link for Plott as a notable alumni. I was a bit surprised that one of the members of team Evil Genius, EG-Idra, did not have his own page. Now I see Tasteless's page is up for deletion! I think the page should stay if it is cleaned up and properly sourced. At the very least, Plott should receive mention on GOMTV's page. E: changed my vote to delete. After skimming the article, reading its sources, and doing a few google searches, there just aren't enough secondary sources to support a quality article for Tasteless. Add Tasteless to the GOMTV page. Maybe in a few years he will have achieved enough notoriety outside of the esport scene to deserve his own page. Steve C. Litchfeld. (talk) 04:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Because of your "changed my vote to delete" bit, I've struck out "or merge". Please revert me if you wish I hadn't done it. Nyttend (talk) 19:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per previous discussion, and noting that there are still not decent sources specifically about this person. Most of the sources are unreliable or are only very scant mentions (mostly that he is casting at an event). Polequant (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - no sign of significant coverage in independent reliable sources, thus not enough verifiable facts to sustain an article; WP:V, WP:GNG, WP:BLP.  Chzz  ►  22:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and WP:GNG. Previous arguments regarding WP:ENTERTAINER don't acknowledge that WP:ENTERTAINER details additional criteria for notability, and that simply passing WP:ENTERTAINER isn't exclusively sufficient. Additionally, some aforementioned 'wealth of sources' such as blogs, Youtube links and opinion pieces aren't generally considered reliable sources. The canvassing is disappointing and I don't agree it was done in good faith - if the canvasser had assumed good faith himself, he would have trusted the Wikipedia community to make the correct decision without soliciting outside help. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt the canvasser has had any experience with the policies of Wikipedia. Considering his post on a outside website his reason as 'for esports', he clearly solicited help with an agenda. -Overthinkingly 03:06, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your interpretation of WP:ENTERTAINER is simply wrong. The additional criteria in WP:BIO can be sufficient for notability. People who meet them are not necessarily notable, but they are likely to be notable. Isron (talk) 15:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, my interpretation of WP:ENTERTAINER isn't wrong, though it may well differ from yours. The term 'presumed' is used heavily in notability guidelines. The section in question is listed under the parent heading 'Additional criteria', which immediately follows the section 'Basic criteria'. Note the word is 'additional', not 'alternate'. In practice, that's exactly what it means - additional. The elements of ENTERTAINER are useful in helping establish notability, in addition to the basic elements we expect all notable people to satisfy. The specifics in the basic criteria section should also be met - an entertainer still should have "been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject".
It's worth keeping in mind as well that the WP:ENTERTAINER criteria require that the entertainment program itself be notable, independent of whether the tournament is notable. The comparison may be that the Australian Open tennis tournament is certainly notable, but 'Fat Jim's Twitter Commentary from the Stands' probably isn't. The current sources don't really establish this. In fact, the sources in the article at the moment aren't good quality, they're mostly primary sources and the majority have barely passing mentions of Plott. We expect sources to have non-trivial coverage of the subject of the article to be useful. A one line mention that he'll be appearing really isn't good enough. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=695279&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=
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