Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Newman Grace Inc.
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. –MuZemike 23:14, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Newman Grace Inc.[edit]
- Newman Grace Inc. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable marketing firm. Provided references all fail WP:RS and most are self-published. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 06:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete: checked the refs, but nothing for WP:N. Dewritech (talk) 10:00, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete: also checked. Nothing notable. --Biker Biker (talk) 16:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Will amend per your notes. This firm and owner Jerri Hemsworth have been recognized by business journals and other publications for the following reasons: one of the larger women-owned marketing firms in North Los Angeles/Ventura County, and for its work as non-profit communications firm. Non-profit communications is an emerging specialty, with few firms focused on this area. Will update immediately per your notes above with appropriate third party references. OBillyHill (talk) 16:46, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Revised entry to clarify and identify company and owner information, as well as information about women-owned business history and political accomplishments of owner. Added references (including California State Senate publication, Ventura Country Star article reference, two references from San Fernando Valley Business Journal, and USA Advertising Agency reference. Also deleted some of the references to company's own website.OBillyHill (talk) 18:14, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) Who is Max P. Bull and why was his only edit to try and add a "hangon" template to this article? [1]. Please note the Conflict of Interest policy. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Added reference information on National Association of Women Business Owners - California chapter. OBillyHill (talk) 00:57, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Local firm which has won local awards and gotten local news coverage. Nothing to indicate notability outside of the San Fernando Valley. 38th most notable woman-owned business in the San Fernando Valley? That almost defines non-notable from the standpoint of an international encyclopedia. OBillyHill has done a great job of supplying references and citations, but they still add up to a firm which is not notable outside of its own community. If a person or firm is simply not notable by Wikipedia standards, no amount of rewriting or sourcing is going to make it so. --MelanieN (talk) 04:34, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- MelanieN is not incorrect about her facts, but I will choose a different position on the significance. Some perspective: the population of the San Fernando Valley is 1.7 million, if it were a city, it would be the 5th largest in the United States (larger than Philadelphia, San Francisco, Dallas, Washington D.C, Boston, Phoenix, Detroit, Seattle, Devner and virtually every other city other than New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Houston). I believe that puts the "38th largest women-owned business" in a different perspective. Granted, 38th doesn't sound very impressive, but remember that Newman Grace is a marketing firm, not manufacturing, financial services, or distribution. I believe that makes it more impressive. The first has also consistently ranked in Medical Media & Marketing magazine's list of top medical marketing firms, but the publication does not post the data online, and is therefore hard to source as a credible reference. The firm and its president have been active, for a decade, in California politics for women-owned business and the issues of women-business owners. Hemsworth, president of the firm, was part of the team that got the Governor to sign AB1643 on behalf of small businesses. Hemsworth served as the president of NAWBO/California (National Association of Women Business Owners) at the state level. Her firm has been an agency of NAWBO both at the state level and local level, but I thought that notation might be too promotional. The firm is also one of very few firms (in the country) that has a division specializing in non-profit marketing communications. Since there is a lack of firms doing this, and it is an emerging area of marketing specialization, it is difficult to find credible references listing or ranking the firms. I believe this is a firm that, while not large, has become notable locally, at the state level, and even nationally, not as a firm boasting its artistic awards, but rather as a firm serving an impressive client base, serving the business community of California politically, and now as a national resource for non-profit corporations and charities. 99.89.52.169 (talk) 15:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC) — 99.89.52.169 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- You argue well, and I don't mean to be minimizing the importance of the San Fernando Valley. But I would feel the same way if the claim to fame was "38th most notable woman-owned business in New York City." It's just not that significant. All of the awards, all of the references are purely local, not even regional - like an award from the county chapter of a national organization. I couldn't find a single reference to this firm in the Los Angeles Times, the regional paper-of-record, and if it were even regionally notable, the LAT would surely have covered it. On Wikipedia, notability is based on whether there is significant coverage of the subject in reliable sources - and in this case there just isn't. For example, you argue that the firm is notable because it has a division specializing in non-profit marketing communications. But your saying so isn't enough; somebody has to have written about that aspect for it to be notable. --MelanieN (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- MelanineN - I understand your perspective. I will guess you are probably thinking of this firm like a J. Walter Thompson type consumer ad agency. While their client list shows some consumer clients, they are primarily a business-to-business firm, which does not generate anywhere near type of publicity consumer firms do. Wikipedia's entries on Marketing & Non-Profit Organizations, Business Marketing, Women In Business support this argument. I just did a quick scan of other firms listed on Wikipedia's Advertising Agencies of the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Advertising_agencies_of_the_United_States) and in approximately a dozen checks, Newman Grace had significantly more references than the majority of regional firms, all of which were in smaller markets. There are, nonetheless, numerous other references which indicate, albeit not to you standards, notoriety beyond the local, including L.A. Times references. The non-profit marketing was referenced above as "Agency Gets Message Out of Work Done by Charities". Here are some other references your search may have missed: L.A. Times reference to "business leader" http://articles.latimes.com/2005/mar/30/local/me-preschool30/2 ; Los Angeles Business Journal reference as "tireless campaigner for important policy issues" in California" in Women Making A Difference feature (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Los+Angeles+Business+Journal/2006/May/8-p52); Hemsworth quoted as business and non-profit authority in national insurance publication "http://www.insuranceday.org/giving-each-person-a-role-important-in-teambuilding/ ; web article by Los Angeles Business Journal of non-profit work "http://www.labusinessjournal.com/news/la-services/?page=3" ; Hemsworth as speaker at national conference of journalists http://vimeo.com/12113912 ; Hemsworth quoted in national feature on diversity in business http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/woman/business_finance/newstream_health_insurance_survey_0904.asp ; referenced in Emerging Minds publication http://emergingminds.org/Businesses-Owned-by-Women-of-Color-Growing-Faster-than-the-Overall-Economy.html ; Brian Hemsworth (president of firm) reference for co-authoring book on Legal Marketing referenced at http://legalwatercoolerblog.com/legal-marketing-resources/handouts-and-downloads/law-firm-marketing-leaders-tips-from-a-collection-of-experts/ ; B. Hemsworth quoted as marketing expert on sponsorships in Brazilian publication http://www.kabarbola.com/?page=gosip&sub=detail&id=16&t=Stadion-stadion%20Bernama%20Sponsor ; B. Hemsworth interviewed by Indiana newspaper as social media expert in http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100328/BIZ01/303289967/0/BIZ01 ; B. Hemsworth sourced in national restaurant magazine as marketing and branding expert in http://www.qsrweb.com/article/97835/Taking-the-guesswork-out-of-an-online-campaign . OBillyHill (talk) 18:53, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, good. The one LA Times article does mention her (but not the company). The Business Journal needs a more specific link but sounds promising. Those two publications (if not the others) qualify as "independent reliable sources". If this gets deleted as a non-notable company, you might consider writing an article about Hemsworth. She may be more notable than her company. I'm not saying she is - it would depend on the sourcing, which is still pretty minimal compared to the Wikipedia standard of "significant coverage from independent reliable sources" - but she might have a better shot. There seems to be a lot more coverage about her than about the company --MelanieN (talk) 05:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks MelanieN. I appreciate all of your suggestions and will review the references per your comments.OBillyHill (talk) 16:27, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, good. The one LA Times article does mention her (but not the company). The Business Journal needs a more specific link but sounds promising. Those two publications (if not the others) qualify as "independent reliable sources". If this gets deleted as a non-notable company, you might consider writing an article about Hemsworth. She may be more notable than her company. I'm not saying she is - it would depend on the sourcing, which is still pretty minimal compared to the Wikipedia standard of "significant coverage from independent reliable sources" - but she might have a better shot. There seems to be a lot more coverage about her than about the company --MelanieN (talk) 05:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- MelanineN - I understand your perspective. I will guess you are probably thinking of this firm like a J. Walter Thompson type consumer ad agency. While their client list shows some consumer clients, they are primarily a business-to-business firm, which does not generate anywhere near type of publicity consumer firms do. Wikipedia's entries on Marketing & Non-Profit Organizations, Business Marketing, Women In Business support this argument. I just did a quick scan of other firms listed on Wikipedia's Advertising Agencies of the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Advertising_agencies_of_the_United_States) and in approximately a dozen checks, Newman Grace had significantly more references than the majority of regional firms, all of which were in smaller markets. There are, nonetheless, numerous other references which indicate, albeit not to you standards, notoriety beyond the local, including L.A. Times references. The non-profit marketing was referenced above as "Agency Gets Message Out of Work Done by Charities". Here are some other references your search may have missed: L.A. Times reference to "business leader" http://articles.latimes.com/2005/mar/30/local/me-preschool30/2 ; Los Angeles Business Journal reference as "tireless campaigner for important policy issues" in California" in Women Making A Difference feature (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Los+Angeles+Business+Journal/2006/May/8-p52); Hemsworth quoted as business and non-profit authority in national insurance publication "http://www.insuranceday.org/giving-each-person-a-role-important-in-teambuilding/ ; web article by Los Angeles Business Journal of non-profit work "http://www.labusinessjournal.com/news/la-services/?page=3" ; Hemsworth as speaker at national conference of journalists http://vimeo.com/12113912 ; Hemsworth quoted in national feature on diversity in business http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/woman/business_finance/newstream_health_insurance_survey_0904.asp ; referenced in Emerging Minds publication http://emergingminds.org/Businesses-Owned-by-Women-of-Color-Growing-Faster-than-the-Overall-Economy.html ; Brian Hemsworth (president of firm) reference for co-authoring book on Legal Marketing referenced at http://legalwatercoolerblog.com/legal-marketing-resources/handouts-and-downloads/law-firm-marketing-leaders-tips-from-a-collection-of-experts/ ; B. Hemsworth quoted as marketing expert on sponsorships in Brazilian publication http://www.kabarbola.com/?page=gosip&sub=detail&id=16&t=Stadion-stadion%20Bernama%20Sponsor ; B. Hemsworth interviewed by Indiana newspaper as social media expert in http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100328/BIZ01/303289967/0/BIZ01 ; B. Hemsworth sourced in national restaurant magazine as marketing and branding expert in http://www.qsrweb.com/article/97835/Taking-the-guesswork-out-of-an-online-campaign . OBillyHill (talk) 18:53, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You argue well, and I don't mean to be minimizing the importance of the San Fernando Valley. But I would feel the same way if the claim to fame was "38th most notable woman-owned business in New York City." It's just not that significant. All of the awards, all of the references are purely local, not even regional - like an award from the county chapter of a national organization. I couldn't find a single reference to this firm in the Los Angeles Times, the regional paper-of-record, and if it were even regionally notable, the LAT would surely have covered it. On Wikipedia, notability is based on whether there is significant coverage of the subject in reliable sources - and in this case there just isn't. For example, you argue that the firm is notable because it has a division specializing in non-profit marketing communications. But your saying so isn't enough; somebody has to have written about that aspect for it to be notable. --MelanieN (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- MelanieN is not incorrect about her facts, but I will choose a different position on the significance. Some perspective: the population of the San Fernando Valley is 1.7 million, if it were a city, it would be the 5th largest in the United States (larger than Philadelphia, San Francisco, Dallas, Washington D.C, Boston, Phoenix, Detroit, Seattle, Devner and virtually every other city other than New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Houston). I believe that puts the "38th largest women-owned business" in a different perspective. Granted, 38th doesn't sound very impressive, but remember that Newman Grace is a marketing firm, not manufacturing, financial services, or distribution. I believe that makes it more impressive. The first has also consistently ranked in Medical Media & Marketing magazine's list of top medical marketing firms, but the publication does not post the data online, and is therefore hard to source as a credible reference. The firm and its president have been active, for a decade, in California politics for women-owned business and the issues of women-business owners. Hemsworth, president of the firm, was part of the team that got the Governor to sign AB1643 on behalf of small businesses. Hemsworth served as the president of NAWBO/California (National Association of Women Business Owners) at the state level. Her firm has been an agency of NAWBO both at the state level and local level, but I thought that notation might be too promotional. The firm is also one of very few firms (in the country) that has a division specializing in non-profit marketing communications. Since there is a lack of firms doing this, and it is an emerging area of marketing specialization, it is difficult to find credible references listing or ranking the firms. I believe this is a firm that, while not large, has become notable locally, at the state level, and even nationally, not as a firm boasting its artistic awards, but rather as a firm serving an impressive client base, serving the business community of California politically, and now as a national resource for non-profit corporations and charities. 99.89.52.169 (talk) 15:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC) — 99.89.52.169 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.