Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by China

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is a clear consensus to retain the page. Any proposals to move and/or otherwise repurpose it should be attempted in the usual way. El_C 22:14, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by China

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Seems like either a WP:POVFORK of Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic or a WP:POINTy political article meant to cast blame on China which is, for better or worse, a right-wing talking point. Either way, a narrowly cast article like this seems to be bizarre. Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by Brazil or Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by Russia, etc. are redlinks for a reason. Put this out of its misery. jps (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Conspiracy theories-related deletion discussions. jps (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. jps (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions.

Will be AfDing Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by the United States for similar reasons. jps (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of COVID-19-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 20:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Keep - well-sourced using Reuters, The NYTimes, WaPo, BBC, Guardian, WSJ, Time (UK), and others of similar quality, passes WP:GNG, not a POVFork, but a necessary spin-off. We don't consider WP:DONTLIKEIT a valid reason for deletion, especially when it involves a highly publicized controversy that is under an ongoing investigation by WHO. Put this AfD out of its misery and snow close it. Atsme 💬 📧 20:46, 24 January 2021 (UTC) ^{Add the underlined for clarity. 01:15, 25 January 2021 (UTC) and 2nd underlined list of sources 14:33, 25 January 2021 (UTC)}[reply]

Note to closer: See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by the United States because the same principal applies here but more so considering WHO is investigating the earliest known cases of COVID-19 which occurred in China, the latter of which is verifiable in numerous RS. We can simply add a wikilink to the main page from the #China section in the list as was done for the US section. This article needs to be a stand alone because of China's notability as the suspected country of origin for the virus. Atsme 💬 📧 16:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: This looks like a good case of WP:CFORK the main article is very large and it is good that sub articles are branched off. OP, i will oppose your USA AfD for the same reason if it comes. Walrus Ji (talk) 20:58, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- A valid WP:CFORK works by spinning off a section into a new article with a {{main}} template link from the old summary-style section back to the main article. That is manifestly not the case here. These pages are just being created by WP:POVPUSH or for some other purpose I can only surmise. jps (talk) 21:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free to copy a summary of the China article into a section in the main article. If you think there are specific instance of POVPUSH then raise it on the talk page. I dont agree that deletion is a valid recourse for the problems you are raising. see WP:PRESERVE Walrus Ji (talk) 21:14, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not how this works. There is no place to put this kind of hastily stitched together material because the article out of which it was ostensibly spun out of details the misinformation point-by-point rather than trying to make some overarching point about country provenance. If the article were organized by country, that would be one thing. But it's not because this sort of approach is one that is novel and essentially being invented by Wikipdia editors rather than reflecting the analysis of outside sources. jps (talk) 21:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:NOTPERFECT. This page is a work in progress and I'm in the process of adding more content from reliable sources. Trust me, there is plenty more where this came from, and there are now details emerging about China's false case counts. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 00:36, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DRAFT, then, if you think this is a work-in-progress. Right now, the article is nearly a WP:POLEMIC and is also pushing certain WP:FRINGE theories without context. jps (talk) 13:31, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per my reasoning on the US version of this article. CUPIDICAE💕 21:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TNT Delete While the subject matter might be notable enough to FORK, the main author seems to heavily POV pushing in the article (ex. the completely unsourced negative lede), and got topic banned last week from writing about the lab leak theory. This article seems to be toeing the line heavily on the spirit of that ban, if not crossing it. TNT'ing the article seems to be the best option here, with no prejudice for re-creation. Jumpytoo Talk 22:15, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Typical POV fork. STSC (talk) 22:22, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and merge any relevant information (subject to normal considerations of WP:WEIGHT) into COVID-19 pandemic in mainland China. This article looks like a classic WP:POVFORK, as others have noted above. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:45, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thucydides411, I believe Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by governments#China to be the best target for merging. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and rename back to Chinese Government Disinformation on Covid-19 or Disinformation on COVID-19 by Chinese government, which is the same. That originally created page would be a legitimate sub-page of Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic, and not a fork. Nothing prevents from creating such sub-pages by country, i.e. by China, by Russia, etc. What a hell? People first rename valid page to a ridiculous title (the current one), and then argue that a page with such title must be deleted. My very best wishes (talk) 23:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and rename back to Chinese Government Disinformation on Covid-19 or Disinformation on COVID-19 by Chinese government, as suggested by My very best wishes. Disinformation and misinformation are not the same thing. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 01:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC) — Note to closing admin: ScrupulousScribe (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD. [reply]

Delete or Merge. This topic already exists at Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by governments#China. The content in the "By Governments#China" article existed first, and is stable. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:01, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is such big section, but it could be better served as a separate page. I am not sure though such pages should exist for other countries. This is special case. The pandemic originated in China, but the government tells it did not [1]. Some say it could come even from Russian VECTOR -> [2]. My very best wishes (talk) 04:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We can do the China section the same way the section on the United States was done, but it doesn't make sense for the originating country to be a short section while the US has its own stand alone page. It leaves the impression of a political bent rather than a NPOV. The same applies to all the Delete and merge comments and should be noted by the closer. Atsme 💬 📧 11:39, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note to Atsme and closer. I've been involved in the splitting/spin off discussions for this article before. As can be seen here, we were discussing spinning off USA purely due to its size. We didn't discuss spinning off China (and ended up leaving it) because it was smaller than the USA section. Hopefully this is strong evidence of a valid CFORK (for USA) and strong evidence against POV. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:21, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and merge, into Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic. A lot of the article is just POV/speculation and not significant enough to stand on its own. Authoritative (upcoming) results from the WHO investigations are the ones that deserve more coverage. No News ! 06:42, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Newfraferz87: Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by governments might be a better target for merging. —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:56, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Atsme. China's special status, due to the fact it originated there and the CCP have directed disinformation campaigns at their own citizens, justifies this special page, just as such pages might be justified for other countries, like the USA and Brazil, where intense government disinformation campaigns have been directed at their own citizens. -- Valjean (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep' not seeing any glaring issues...... all those working on the main article are trying to condense it's size as per our policy...plus.WP:Does deletion help?--Moxy 🍁 17:38, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep main article is absurdly long and broad. Creation of a sub-article such as this one is helpful to keeping the main one down to a sane size. Additionally, there is a lot of high-quality sourcing on this topic. Adoring nanny (talk) 22:59, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: from what I can tell, the article will only get longer and more complex. Normchou ^💬 01:57, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sufficiently important in its own right, due the abundance of material- - there is too much misinformation elating to Covid to deal with in a single article. DGG ( talk ) 07:10, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Given the level of misinformation from China on many issues, including well-sourced material about COVID, it's reasonable to have a separate article. Arcturus (talk) 13:20, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: this is an attack page, and we need something more than journalistic reports to accuse a government. QueerEcofeminist[they/them/their] 02:03, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- QueerEcofeminist, what other sources do you propose? We use RS here, and they include, and are often primarily, "journalistic reports". BTW, you've been here long enough to know better than to call this an WP:Attack page". Don't misuse terms. -- Valjean (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and rename per @My very best wishes:. The other name flows better and this is a fine sub-article. Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:25, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by governments, per my reasoning at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic by the United States. (Though the problem is more severe for that article, this one is also effectively a POVFORK because it's devoted solely to negative information about the Chinese government's COVID-19 communication.) Also, this is a relatively short article, and the information would fit comfortably in the relevant section of the main article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:55, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The page has valuable info that qualifies it to be on EN:WIKI Jenyire2 (talk) 10:06, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the page has morphed into a collection of various conspiracy theories about China and criticisms of various aspects of China's response to the pandemic, rather than an article about misinformation by the Chinese government. One example is the prominent inclusion of an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory from China's Twitter equivalent, Weibo, about the number of urns shipped to funeral homes in Wuhan. Never mind that there's never been any evidence that the Weibo conspiracy theorists' wild claims about death figures were correct, the existence of this theory is now being used to imply that China's National Health Commission's figures were misinformation. This conspiracy theory was championed by a number of US politicians, including Tom Cotton. It's ironic that a page nominally about misinformation by China now contains what is likely misinformation targeting China. To me, this just confirms my earlier suspicions that this page is just a WP:POVFORK. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:08, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.