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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Mailer Diablo 03:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maze Clays(tm)[edit]

Delete nn sport, ad, vanity, prod removed by creator w/o explanation the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 01:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • The problem is that it's an ad, not an encyclopedia entry. Wikipedia is not free adspace. Fan1967 01:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have nominated this page for deletion because I believe this sport does not meet the notability criteria required under WP:N and further because the purpose of the article is to promote the sport/organization. Your input is valued here - go ahead and read the policies, and then you can make a case for why this article should be retained in the encyclopedia. the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 01:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - per nom Nobunaga24 01:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response to deletion request. Maze Clays is a new shotgun discipline that was just recently launched. It is a unique and newsworthy topic, from the fact that it already has a following in the shooting ranges that it was introduced. We have had TV coverage that is about to air in the following weeks. The article is not an ad or vanity, it plainly states the creators of the discipline and the main characteristics. It does not go into the benefits of this game over the other existing shotgun sports. This topic is verifiable by visiting the official website.
  • Not a promotion - it simply states the components and rules of the game. Please explain what you mean your accusations in greater detail so that I may respond.
    • God forbid, no accusations. I have nothing against you, and your shouldn't try to convince me, rather everybody here. The problem with your page is that I believe it violate WP:N and is an ad. the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 01:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Details** I understand that this is a debate. I would like to know specifically, what is it that you see in this article that would classify it as an ad? Second, I have explained the fact that it is notable, because it is unique, something new a novelty, which already has a following among the hundreds of shooters who have tried it out.
  • Basically, there are two points. (1) it looks like an ad for the website that licenses the game and sells the equipment. (2) It appears non-notable as, basically, it looks like practically nobody is doing this. The lack of Google hits makes this look like a start-up attempting to get some exposure. You claim there's a following, yet nobody seems to be talking about it. (By the way, sign your comments with ~~~~) Fan1967 02:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • First of all the article does not talk about licensing or selling the equipment. It describe the Maze Clays discipline. The link to the website is put there for verifiability purposes.

Second, just because you can't find hits on Google doesn't mean that it does not have a following. What corellation exists between shotgun shooters and computer users. What basis do you have to tell me that shotgun shooters automatically are big fans of computers? The purpose of the article is to inform shooters about the existance of a new shotgun sport. What is wrong with that. The article does not mention a sales pitch which you claim that it is. Cautaro

  • Delete Notability is a guideline, not a grounds for deletion. Whether this is an ad or not is debatable (although the TM everywhere doesn't help matters). But pending some kind of third party verification this article should be deleted. Note also that Wikipedia is not for self-promotion - the creators of such a sport should not be the ones writing an article about that sport. Ziggurat 02:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everybody's on the internet these days. Every gun club has a website and, apparently, if any of them are running these games, they're not listing them. Read the policy: WP:V. You cannot provide any verification other than the vendor's website that shows there is a following. Fan1967 02:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete; at the least, this is a WP:V problem, as the only sources I can find about this are the Maze Clays website. Admitted to being "recently launched" as well, so WP:CHILL applies. --Kinu t/c 02:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Club reference - one club that is running the game has a link on their site: Tom Lowe Shooting Grounds User:Cautaro
  • Sorry, one club out of thousands does not constitute a notable sport. Fan1967 02:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The author wrote the following on my page page:
This is a quote from the notable page: "The word notable is often used as a synonym of "unique" or "newsworthy." 

To explain, Maze Clays is unique because it uses a new system of operating the shotgun sport. Besides that it has a new classification and no registered targets are are necessary, two new, unique things which don't currently exist. 

Second, it is newsworthy. We have been filmed by the Comcast channnel CSS and will be airing in the following weeks. We are in talks with other media sources who are interested to feature Maze Clays.
The fact that you are the producer of this product means that the article may also violate WP:VANITY. Also, Maze Clays has not yet been aired on any major media sources; whether it will be in the future is irrelavent. Finally, the article does not assert the notability of its topic and we thus have no idea how many users the product has and if that number is significant. Perhaps later it would be a good article, but not now. Where (talk) Clarify T1-reduce wikiStrife 03:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • First of all the article describes a shotgun discipline, which by definition cannot be sold. The equipment is described to provide a better understanding of the game. Second, what is wrong with having the information come directly from the authors of the creation. In this day in age, where the internet allows creators and users to come together, why would Wikipedia be a barrier to this type of communication?
  • Inclusion criteria: What would the article need in order to be included? User:Cautaro
  • First of all, the article insists on using the TM symbol every time the discipline is mentioned. In other words, no one can run these games without paying royalties to the owners of the trademark. Don't be disingenuous. By definition, that is selling. In addition, it seems there's specialized equipment for this sport that's also being sold. Second of all, You are under a delusion that appears to be quite common, you believe Wikipedia exists to help promote and publicize new things. It does not. Fan1967 03:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, per nom. It may be "unique and newsworthy", but as has already been said, the article should be written by someone with nothing to gain or lose by its inclusion, the (tm) should be ditched, and it needs indepedent, third party sources beyond a single hyperlink from a random gun club of questionable notability in itself, such as mentions (that are not advertisements) in magazines, newspapers, etc. Otherwise, it's just self-promotion. -Dawson 03:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom, except for the prod part. There is no requirement to explain a prod removal. · rodii · 04:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree, I stated that there was no reason given not as a reason for deletion but for the sake of full information. the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 05:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom except prod. ¡Dustimagic! (T/C) 04:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per others. If someone independent of the sport's inventors decide to write an article that doesn't read like ad copy, and if the sport has, by that point, achieved significant media coverage, it would be worth inclusion then. Right now it just seems like a vanity/advertising page to me. Hbackman 04:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. --Khoikhoi 05:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Sandstein 06:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom --Icarus 08:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • DeleteTM. JIP | Talk 09:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. --Terence Ong 10:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete No verifiable claim to notability. And it does look like an ad™. Robin Johnson 10:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - the constant trademark symbol did it for me. Lankiveil 11:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC).[reply]
  • Delete, vanity, ad, unverifiable. Jude (talk,contribs,email) 11:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please review - the page has been updated, by removing the (tm) marking and also any references that would seem like vanity or ad. Also I have requested that the page be moved to Maze Clays from Maze Clays(tm). Also the image has been changed, so that it does not reflect the equipment by itself (not an ad). Again, the purpose of the page is to inform the Wikipedia users and I believe the Wikipedia users have a lot more to gain from this information, than by deleting this page. Please provide feedback. Cautaro 17:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete strictly on the basis of NN. Maybe Maze Clays will become the ne plus ultra of skeet/trap shooting in the ensuing years and it might qualify for a huge article in an encyclopedia (written by an unrelated 3rd party...) But today it simply another corporate promo item, and has yet to establish its notability. Wikipedia can't have an article on every new game/product/idea that's out there. Slowmover 17:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nomination.--Isotope23 17:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete vanispamcruftisement Just zis Guy you know? 18:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete non-notable. -Mask 18:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable - I have stated earlier that according to Wikipedia in order for a site to be notable, it has to be unique or newsworthy. I believe that Maze Clays is both, and that is the reason for which I don't see the basis for not notable claim. Maze Clays is unique, because is different from all the existing shotgun sports and it is newsworthy because it has solid fundamentals that will change the shotgun shooting industry. Cautaro 02:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If it is newsworthy, the the news has covered it. Point out solid newspaper or magazine references for this subject, and it'll be considered notable. If they are 'soon to be', then the article will be deleted, without prejudice, and you can recreate it once a newspaper prints something on the subject. -Mask 02:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) You believing that this is unique and newsworthy is not enough. Uniqueness and newsworthiness have to be borne out by other sources than people directly related to an article's subject. Hbackman 02:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newsworthy - I have found a reference to Maze Clays on Lost Target which is a "A web-based news service for gun enthusiasts", under the News of Interest section. Cautaro 19:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It looks like a single hyperlink to your website (added today even), not an independently written news/magazine article. -Dawson 19:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Still trying, eh? lol - the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 19:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response - The website that posted this link considered it as being a newsworthy item in order for them to place it on the main page under the News of Interest section. Cautaro 15:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The losttargets.com site is listed as a partner of mazeclays. Should be looked at with a grain of sand. Also, the memberlist on the forums on mazeclays.com include two entries, one of which was automaticaly created by the BBS program. -Mask 18:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Response The LostTarget.com site is news site for shotgun enthusiasts. The fact that it appears under the Partners page is just a gesture of appreciation for their support. Second, the forum at mazeclays.com is a new addition and the list of users does not reflect the number of members. The number of users is just how many people registered to use the forums without correlation to members. Cautaro 13:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, copyvio, vanity. --Soumyasch 13:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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