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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Tikiwont (talk) 10:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Boyd (wrestler)[edit]

Matt Boyd (wrestler) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

This is only a high school wrestler who has won a state title. There are probably 1,000 such wrestlers each year. There is nothing here that would be at the standards of WP:BIO. This could probably even be a speedy deletion candidate under WP:CSD#A7 if anyone would like to tag it as such. Metros (talk) 23:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Further note According to this PDF, the subject did not win the highest level in the state. Metros (talk) 00:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Notability Confirmed That PDF that you linked to confirms that the article's subject competed in that tournament. How does that dispute Wikipedia notability requirements? Dimension31 (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • So every single wrestler in every single high school state championship deserves an article is what you're saying? Metros (talk) 02:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC
        • I don't recall ever saying that before. Dimension31 (talk) 02:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • That's essentially what you're saying here. You're saying he's notable because he's wrestled in the state meet of champions which you claim to be the highest level he can ever achieve. So if he's notable, then anyone else who wrestled in that tournament is notable? Metros (talk) 02:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Please do not say I said things that I never said. Dimension31 (talk) 02:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • I must admit that I am also at a loss for any other interpretation of the "notability confirmed" part of your comment than as an assertion that mere competition in the tournament qualifies. If that's not what you intended, please clarify your comment above. Rossami (talk) 01:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                • I intended to note that the PDF that Metros linked to is further evidence of the athlete's notability. Dimension31 (talk) 01:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, If you look at Wikipedia:Notability (people), notability is considered to have been achieved when an athlete has "competed at the highest level in amateur sports." This individual has competed, and won, in the highest level of competition in the state of New Hampshire. Dimension31 (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The highest level for this wrestler would be the Olympics, not the state high school finals. Metros (talk) 23:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Olympics does not include folkstyle wrestling. This individual has competed in the highest level of his sport.Dimension31 (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Then he could go on to win at the collegiate level which, even then, could be debatable. Metros (talk) 23:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Collegiate wrestling organizations are completely unrelated to high school wrestling organizations and use different rules and regulations. This individual has competed in the highest level of his sport. Dimension31 (talk) 23:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • According to collegiate wrestling, folkstyle=collegiate. Therefore, he could go on to the National Collegiate Athletic Association and wrestle when he reaches college. Metros (talk) 23:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • Collegiate wrestling using folkstyle wrestling as its style does not mean that collegiate wrestling is a higher level of folkstyle wrestling than high school wrestling. The NCAA is not some kind of wrestling overlord organization -- the sport is made up of many disconnected entities, many with their own rules and regulations. Dimension31 (talk) 23:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete; I don't think that Wikipedia:Notability (people) was meant to be interpreted that way; I think we have distinct WP:BLP1E issues here. We have one article in one local newspaper; that's just not enough to cut it, particularly for a biography.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The article has a number of sources on the subject. Dimension31 (talk) 02:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The opening statement uses extreme hyperbole. With only 48 states participating in this form of wrestling, wouldn't that mean that there are only 48 state champions in this weight class? 48 is not equal to 1000. This point was brought to my attention by User:Cube lurker. Dimension31 (talk) 02:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was multiplying that across all the weight classes across all levels/divisions. If there are 14 weight classes and 48 states, that's 672 wrestlers. And that's if you just consider meet of champions winners. If you then consider division/group/sectional whatever the state calls their size divisions like you're insisting we have to do, you have well over 1,000 high school "state champions". He's not one of 48 state champions. He's not even his own state's champion; he's just the champion of his division. He lost at the meet of champions. Metros (talk) 02:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • He was a state champion. You don't seem to be familiar with what the NH Meet of Champions is. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with some of Wikipedia's articles on the sport of wrestling before trying to delete important articles on the topic. Dimension31 (talk) 02:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I know very well what a meet of champions is. It's where the winner (and often runners-up and wild cards) of every group/division in the state wrestler to see who's the top in that event. So, he won his group, but lost amogst all the groups. So there are people in the state who are better at his weight class than he is. Therefore, he is not the state winner, he just won his division. Metros (talk) 02:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • If you had familiarized yourself with the NHIAA policies and procedures you would understand that each division champion is considered a state champion. Dimension31 (talk) 02:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I honestly don't know why we're wasting this much discussion on a page that will be deleted in 5 days. Metros (talk) 02:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • I don't think you have the power to decide on your own that an article will be in deleted in 5 days. Dimension31 (talk) 04:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, 48 U.S. champions in this weight class this year. Multiply by the number of weight classes and years, and a thousand doesn't seem high, even before we remember that there are many other countries and states in those countries.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • True, but the US is the only country that has this style of wrestling, and Metro specified that he was referring to this year. Dimension31 (talk) 04:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • He is not state champion in his weight class. "Division 2 state champion". Division 2 consists of smaller high schools. Division 1 is the higher class. Some U.S states divide high school sports into three or more classes, which would multiply the number of champions correspondingly. Quale (talk) 07:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • He is a state champion in his weight class. Are you saying that the sources in the article are saying things that are incorrect? Also, by the way, the number 1 is less than 2. Dimension31 (talk) 08:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Winning one state HS division championship is not sufficiently notable by itself to warrant an article. We've deleted NCAA state/regional champs and Junior world champions based on the consensus that that was still short of the highest level of competition, I'm going to need more than continual repetition of the claim to convince me that this is top of the line. Also well short of general, as the sourcing is weak. If there was an impressive level of coverage it would be another story.Horrorshowj (talk) 04:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is no such thing as an NCAA state champion. NCAA wrestling has nothing to do with the form of the sport that this wrestler competes in -- they aren't some kind of master wrestling organization that goes around dictating what every wrestler in the whole world does. Dimension31 (talk) 06:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I saw NCAA California champion listed as an amateur wrestling accomplishment in a now deleted article. I figured if that one existed it was a feeder to the regional tourney. Regardless, it wasn't believed to be anywhere close to a sufficient claim to notability. You claimed that High School counted as the top level of competition, however it's been pointed out the NCAA uses folk wrestling. Additionally, the AAU holds a Folkstyle World Championship[1] and Nationals along with the Grand National and Ironman that require competition in all 3 versions. So there's a lot above the state HS level to compete in at folkstyle, and I'm not even sure winning most of those would confer notability as a single event.
        It's understandable that NHIA considers the divisional state champs equal. However, that doesn't make it a more notable accomplishment in its own right. Winning the state MOC would probably have swayed a few people. Winning the New England Regional TOC if it's still around may have convinced me to argue for keep, even with marginal coverage. This was a respectable accomplishment, but it's not enough to meet WP:BIO. The sources aren't even ankle deep, and there isn't a large quantity of them which means there's no real claim for general notability either. Horrorshowj (talk) 09:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • There is no such thing as an NCAA California champion. Dimension31 (talk) 02:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. State Division 2 high school champion falls well short of the bar. (Division 1 is a higher level of competition in the same state, and even a divison 1 high school champion wouldn't be notable.) Quale (talk) 07:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Division I is not a higher level of competition. What gave you that idea? The two divisions are split based on school enrollments, not wrestling abilities. Dimension31 (talk) 08:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I get it now; he didn't even win state, he won his division at the state level. That is, he won the division level, not the state level.--Prosfilaes (talk) 15:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • He won the Division II State Championship, so he won at both the divisional and state level. Dimension31 (talk) 02:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Dimension31. Nominator may have nominated in all sincerity, but appears not to have read their own cited sources properly - David Gerard (talk) 13:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • What exactly did I misread? The subject is a divisional state champion for high school wrestling. He won his division in his weight class. He did not win the entire state during the state meet of champions tournament. This is not the highest level of competition he can achieve as he can go on to the college level to compete. What is it that makes this subject notable? There are thousands of student-athletes each year who achieve the exact achievement he has, should we have articles on every single high school wrestler who wins a state title? In fact, according to this interpretation of the guidelines that is being suggested here, we have to include every wrestler who just competes at the tournament because the guidelines say "competed at the highest level", not just won. So are they all notable? Metros (talk) 13:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Metros, I would like to see some evidence of your claim of thousands of student-athletes winning this wrestler's exact achievement. Also, by the way, the Meet of Champions is not a state championship tournament. Dimension31 (talk) 00:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I showed it right here. 642 would have won if you just consider 14 weight classes with one champion for the entire state for 48 states. If you then consider that a lot of states have several divisions/groups, it just increases. And what do you call the guy who wins the meet of champions? The state champion. He is better than every single wrestler in his weight class across all divisions. Metros (talk) 00:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • You have yet to give any concrete numbers. You haven't even mentioned the fact that some states use a different number of weight classes, and haven't specified the number of divisions in any states. The guy who wins the Meet of Champions is the Meet of Champions winner. You can't accurately compare him to the state champions without additional information. Dimension31 (talk) 00:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete After carefully reading section 2.6 of the WP:BIO guidelines it clearly reads as follows "Competitors and coaches who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports (who meet the general criteria of secondary sources published about them)." Even if the athlete in question has achieved the highest amateur level he can I just don't see where he meets the general criteria of secondary sources. The criteria of secondary sources can be found in section 1 of WP:BIO. The sources provided do not give in-depth coverage of the athlete, most are rosters and placements from the wrestling organization and supplied news sources cover more than just this particular athlete. If there were more media coverage of this particular athlete he might pass the standard.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 14:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • This athlete does meet the general criteria of secondary sources. Dimension31 (talk) 02:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per PDF linked by Metros. I'm not expert on the subject, but as far as I can tell this athlete has competed at the highest level of competition in his sport, which is exactly what Wikipedia guidelines specify. If there's a problem here, it's with the guidelines, not with this article. Regulator15 (talk) 00:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The state championship for HS wrestling is not the highest level he can achieve. It's already been well stated that he could go on to college and beyond. Metros (talk) 00:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't think that that has been well stated at all. All I see is you saying that and others refuting you with strong evidence to the contrary. Regulator15 (talk) 00:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Who are these "others"? Other than Dimension31, no one has refuted it. Metros (talk) 00:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • The others are Dimension31 and now me. After reading more on the topic I now see that this athlete's sport is a different form of the sport than the other organizations you were trying to say he should compete for. That's like saying some kickboxer should have to win the Olympics in regular boxing to be considered notable in kickboxing. I disagree with you. Regulator15 (talk) 00:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I have already shown (as have others) that collegiate wrestling is the form also used in high school. So he could go on to college to wrestle. Metros (talk) 00:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • You have not shown that. To show that would be impossible, since they do not use collegiate wrestling in high school. Dimension31 (talk) 01:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This is not how that clause was meant to be interpreted. The arguments to keep require us to parse the notability criteria to such a narrow population that essentially everyone becomes "notable" for something. We do not want and can not support articles at that level. Rossami (talk) 01:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • If that isn't how the clause was meant to be interpreted I believe it would have been written differently. I do not think it is up to editors to interpret the guidelines according to our own opinions; we should just read them as they are written. Dimension31 (talk) 01:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • As someone who was here when the page was first written and who has carefully watched the evolution of the page, I can tell you with certainty that we never intended future readers to blindly apply the words on the page. Look at the Talk page archives if you want all the color and nuance. Or apply common sense. The intent was to allow coverage of Olympians or their equivalents. That's not just my opinion - that's demonstrable fact which can be confirmed in the archives. Rossami (talk) 06:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. This is a farce. The International Mathematics Olympiad is also the "highest level of mathematical sport" since there is no international maths competition between countries beyond high school competition, and the same applies for physics, chemistry etc. By this reasoning offered by the keep advocates, any guy who got a state award would qualify (South Australia is so bad that none of the top 100 biology students in Australia are from SA), let alone a student from a weak third world country who got < 10% would get a wiki-bio. Nope. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 01:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • dude math aint a sport. it's a class. just thought you should know. CApin2win (talk) 02:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is a big difference between the International Mathematics Olympiad and New Hampshire high school wrestling. In fact, I do not think that the International Mathematics Olympiad organization is notable enough to merit an article. Dimension31 (talk) 01:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, there is a big difference, NH wrestling is <<< than IMO. I think you need a reality check. Do you want to compete against kids who have been trained for 6-7 years in specialist science/maths high schools by uni professors who live all year round in a math/science boarding academy? I think you need a reality check. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 01:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think you wrote, "I think you need a reality check." twice. Why are you asking me if I want to compete against kids in whatever competition it is you're talking about? How is that relevant to this article? Dimension31 (talk) 01:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • It was directed toward your comment regarding IMO. The IMO is an international competition, that pits the best and brighest from one country against another country's elite students. There have been a number of high school IMO students who went on to become famous mathematicians (Grigori Perelman and Terence Tao, for example). High school wrestling just brings the top people in one school to face the top from another school. That's the difference. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 01:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Why would he ask me about wanting to compete against kids though? Dimension31 (talk) 02:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • He was giving you a "this or that" option. Would you rather face someone in wrestling or would you go against some kid (Blnguyen means high-schooler) who has almost a graduate degree level of knowledge in a particular subject? Anyway, it's not really relevant to this discussion, so let's drop that matter. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 02:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Furthermore, some people are saying that folkstyle is different from freestyle in its variations, so therefore it can be treated totally differently. By this reasoning, a guy who wins the US 50yd freestyle swimming title is on the same league as Alex Popov winning the 50m at the Olympics because of a slight variation. Not relevant. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 01:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Freestyle and folkstyle wrestling are different sports. 50 yard and 50 meter freestyle swimming events are the same sport/event at different distances. Your comparison does not apply to this article. Dimension31 (talk) 01:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Blnguyen. He isn't Alex Popov; he's nobody in particular. Forkstyle and Freestyle should be treated as essentially the same thing in this case. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete WP:ATHLETE says "Competitors and coaches who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports (who meet the general criteria of secondary sources published about them)." Boyd is not the complete center of focus for any of the sources used. [2] provides the most details about Boyd, but it just offers details about his year, rank going into the tournament, and weight. Also, this article will remain a two line stub for as long as it is on Wikipedia. Unless he stars in collegiate wrestling, there's not going to be any expansion. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 01:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • If an article not having room for expansion is grounds for deletion, then why aren't all the articles about dead people being deleted? Dimension31 (talk) 02:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I didn't say that was my grounds for deletion. I just merely pointed that out. Also, short articles on dead persons are sometimes deleted under WP:CSD#A1. The other 2 line articles about dead people can be expanded, but no one seems to have gotten to it yet. I don't see that as being the situation with Matt Boyd. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 02:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Why did you say that this article is two lines long? Dimension31 (talk) 02:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Because it looks like two lines in Firefox 1024x768. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 02:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I don't think that all of Wikipedia's decisions should be based on how Wikipedia pages look on your specific computer, on your specific browser, with your specific resolution, with your specific text size. Dimension31 (talk) 02:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • I already said that the length of the article was not part of my deletion rationale. If you want to make your case about keeping this article, I suggest you address my real deletion rationale. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 02:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Personal attack removed by user:Metros) at 02:14, 02:16 and 02:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC). Restored and replied (below) by user:Nishkid64 at 02:25. The version below was added then modified several times by user:CApin2win at around 02:30.[reply]
  • NOT SURE i read the rest of this page and it says since he competed he is notable so the article should stay but i read some more and now someone is saying the guideilnes are wrong? wtf is this — Preceding unsigned comment added by CApin2win (talk • contribs)
    • Your vote was deleted last time because you said "DELETE this wrestler sucks he shouldnt of one states". That's not a valid rationale. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 02:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - not notable enough to warrant an article of his own. Despite his accomplishment, we can't have articles about all winners of the "highest level of Division II wrestling in the state of X." Imagine how many articles we would have. He is simply not notable enough -- yet. Khoikhoi 02:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - not convinced the local newspapers cited are reliable sources. Addhoc (talk) 03:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - there's evidence of some rather obvious votestacking by sock-puppet accounts here. I was requested to run a checkuser here, and can report the following:  Confirmed - CApin2win (talk · contribs) = Dimension31 (talk · contribs) = Regulator15 (talk · contribs), confirmed by checkuser - Alison ❤ 07:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wow. Didn't see that coming at all! Strangely, CApin2win initially voted delete because "this wrestler sucks". Why would the one account vote delete while another vote keep? Maybe it's a school IP? Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 14:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I actually did suspect this. I think the whole CApin2win voting delete was just to be disruptive more than anything else. I've also assumed the other connection with Regulator15 for awhile, so it's good to see the evidence is now out. By the way, check out how CApin2win suddenly started being coherent after hours of nothing but bad spelling. Metros (talk) 15:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete not notable; he won a high school level competition. Fails WP:BIO and probably WP:BLP#1E too. -- Naerii · plz create stuff 18:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Only in the rarest of instances is a high school athlete even close to deserving an article (I'm thinking along the lines of LeBron James, whose high school games were broadcast on ESPN for crying out loud). This kid doesn't come close. So he won a state championship - congratulations, but so what? (Warning: rough math ahead!) High schools in the United States are typically divided into three divisions based on the number of students, in order to level the playing field when it comes to athletics. Let's be conservative and say there are ten weight classes. That would mean there are thirty high school state wrestling champions in each of the fifty states every year, or in other words 1500 such students do what this kid did every year. There's nothing notable about it. My soccer team won state my senior year - do I get an article too? Of course not. faithless (speak) 08:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, NH is a small state of 1.2 million people, 0.4% of the US population. It's not like he won in a large state like CA or NY or TX. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 08:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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