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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. Per SK1. Merge suggestions can be discussed on the article talk page. (non-admin closure) — Sam Sailor 02:28, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Master of Fogdö[edit]

Master of Fogdö (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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can't find any reliable sources for "Fogdömästaren" or "Master of Fogdö". http://www.kyrkokartan.se/058261/Fogd%C3%B6_kyrka doesn't look reliable, http://medeltidbild.historiska.se/medeltidbild/visa/foremal.asp?objektid=930502M2# looks reliable, but it's hardly significant coverage. The last source "The Concise Grove Dictionary of Art (terms)" is in print but I don't know if it's actually covered in there. I initially suspected a hoax, but it seems like this person might have actually existed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prisencolin (talk • contribs) 04:26, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. North America1000 05:41, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. North America1000 05:41, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions. North America1000 05:41, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. North America1000 05:41, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  • Hourihane, C. (2012). The Grove Encyclopedia of Medieval Art and Architecture. OUP USA. p. 541. ISBN 978-0-19-539536-5.
  • Sveriges kyrkor, konsthistoriskt inventarium...(et al.). Generalstabens litografiska anstalts. 1982. p. 133. (subscription required)
  • Lindgren, M. (1987). A history of Swedish art. Signum. p. 80. ISBN 978-91-85330-78-2. A long way away from these Sodermanland churches, in Skane and on Zealand in Denmark, there are very similar suites of paintings, and for this reason the author has been dubbed the "Union Master". He ought, however, to be regarded ... (subscription required)
  • Keep Well, we do not expect tons of references found online for a XV century artist, are we? But even with what I can simply find in google, there are enough evidences and information for standalone article. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 07:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Grove is a reliable source. Google books has a snapshot of the entry here Mduvekot (talk) 11:25, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- I am not a fluent reader of Swedish, but the second source does give the attribution. The Grove reference is mislinked, and the first is linked to a tourist comments site. More worryingly, the Swedish WP link is to an article on the Union Master. Deletion should not be an option. The worst that should happen is we merge or redirect to that article. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:14, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I created this article because the old frescos in the churches of Denmark and Sweden are of considerable artistic importance. I'm afraid that quite often sources about Denmark and Sweden are mainly in the Scandinavian languages and cannot always be identified on Google searches in English. Could those of you who have access to Grove, etc., please add references to the article.--Ipigott (talk) 14:34, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment According to the data base of the Swedish National Heritage Board (which is as about reliable as you can get for Swedish history), www.kringla.nu, Fogdömästaren and Unionsmästaren (Union Master and Master of Fogdö) are two alternative names for the same person, something that the Swedish article also states. According to that article he was called Union Master in Scandinavia but was given the alternative name Master of Fogdö in Sweden. cart-Talk 16:21, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cart, to complicate things further there are TWO Masters of Fogdö, one painter and one sculptor - the existence of the sculptor seems even more dubious (or, rather, obviously there was a sculptor as we can see but there seems to be questions of whether it's reasonable to use this name or not). Art history can be a but messy ;) Yakikaki (talk) 07:10, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Snow Withdraw, clearly exists, merger discussion can continue elsewhere. No point in continuing afd.--Prisencolin (talk) 18:37, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: As somebody who has studied art history in Sweden, I think this article should remain for the time being or be merged with the Union Master -- it doesn't matter all that much -- but there is a more subtle problem with this and similar subjects: early 19th century Swedish art historians tended to identify individual anonymous "masters" and attribute large numbers of artworks to them. The tendency in the last few decades has been to question these attributions to individuals and talk more vaguely of workshops or schools. Nevertheless and somewhat confusingly, the "names" often remain in use out of convenience. This is still a legitimate subject for an article, but eventually, this and other articles of this sort need to be reworked to clarify these historiographical issues. --Hegvald (talk) 06:23, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge, I've consulted "Signums svenska konstihistoria. Gotiken." which is, both in my views I would dare say in the general view as well, the best contemporary comprehensive art history of Sweden. On the subject, it says (in my translation) "Paintings very similiar in style [to those in Strängnäs Cathedral] can be found in Fogdö Church not very far from Strängnäs Cathedral. These paintings have traditionally been grouped together with the Zealandian decorations in Undlöse and Nöddebo, dated to around 1425, and the painter has been labelled the "Union Master", an attribution which later has been questioned. However, in 1981 frescoes were uncovered in Rörby on Zealand which in their unspoilt condition convincingly show that the similarities are not only the result of a style of the time but that it is in fact the same painter who has worked in both Sweden and in Denmark. A close inspection reveals a number of characteristic details which unite the Danish and Swedish paintings. The name "Union Master" can therefore be retained for this in all probability foreign artist, who worked in an international style of high quality, with parallels in Westphalian and Bohemian painting." (page 385) Since the name Fogdömästaren nevertheless certainly still is in use and at the end of the day it's after all a question of attributions and assigned names, I would suggest to incorporate the article on the Master of Fogdö into the Union Master page with a short summary of the issue of attributing these paintings. Yakikaki (talk) 06:27, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per Yakikaki (with usual redirect). What I saw when I looked before writing my earlier comment made me wonder whether that might not be an appropriate outcome. I hope Yakikaki can be persuaded to undertake the merger, using the sources found. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:05, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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