Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mars Argo

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:53, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mars Argo[edit]

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Fails notability: Of the three references, "Odyssey Online" is user-supplied content; "Noisey" has no reputation as reliable source; and the "Wired" piece is about Poppy, with Mars Argo only being mentioned in passing. There's not enough there to satisfy a claim of "substantial coverage in multiple reliable sources" per WP:GNG. --RexxS (talk) 00:57, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Significant coverage addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material. I think the wired notation is acceptable as it does cover the topic of mars argo quite significantly even if it isn't the main purpose of the article. Also, Noisey is a branch of VICE which is quite a reliable source. I would like a further explanation of what you mean by "user-supplied content". The reason Mars Argo has such little notability these days is because Titanic Sinclair tries to shut it down. Him and Mars Argo had an awkward history together and he doesn't want the past to surface. Thank you for speaking with me. Have a nice day. smartalek22 (talk) 09:07, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody reading the Wired source, "Welcome to Poppy's World" could possibly call that "significant coverage addresses the topic directly and in detail", when the topic is supposed to be Mars Argo. What makes Noisey (a branch of VICE) a WP:reliable source? Where is its "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"? It's an ephemeral, pop-culture blog. The "Odyssey Online" site is user-generated content and the guidance at WP:UGC is clear that it's not acceptable as a source - see https://about.theodysseyonline.com/apply/ . The reason Argo has no notability is that no reliable sources exist that provide significant coverage of her. That means we shouldn't have an article. --RexxS (talk) 12:20, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, needs more cites but is notable through the collab project between her and Titanic Sinclair and Sinclair's later work. The article about Poppy in Wired will be only one of articles about the Sinclair/Poppy project which will mention Mars Argo. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:20, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Titanic Sinclair is not notable, and neither is his collaboration with Mars Argo. This is just a couple of kids uploading to YouTube. Passing mentions of Argo in other articles does not establish notability. Where is the significant coverage in multiple reliable sources? --RexxS (talk) 12:20, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Titanic Sinclair is a notable figure as the current director of the Poppy project as featured in reliably excellent sources such as the The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/11/poppy-youtube-meme-pop-sensation-titanic-sinclair-moriah-pereira) and New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/04/arts/fembot-poppy-lil-miquela-kylie-jenner.html). Titanic and Mars also have 48.9K and 20K followers on Twitter respectively and their collaborative YouTube channel has almost 10 million views. They are definitely notable figures. Sunriseblossom (talk) 15:35, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If Sinclair is so notable, why doesn't he have a Wikipedia article? Point me to where our guidelines show that number of Twitter followers count towards notability? This is an encyclopedia, not a pop fan tribute site, and Mars is definitely not a notable figure. Where is the significant coverage in multiple reliable sources? --RexxS (talk) 17:51, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think an editor has tried to put up a Sinclair page, although I'm not sure. He will have one eventually, even the Guardian and New York Times cites mentioned above go to that as well as many other sources. I think now it's just a matter of someone determined enough to put up a well-written page for Sinclair. His work with Mars Argo and Poppy, as well as his own videos and writings (songs and the YouTube Red tv show I'm Poppy), put him in the notable-but-no-Wikipedia-page-as-yet category. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:07, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 06:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 06:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete - Everyone above must avoid the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS fallacy. The existence of, and quality of, articles on Poppy and Titanic Sinclair are irrelevant to the debate on this particular Mars Argo article. Also, don't forget WP:CIVIL. Meanwhile I have seen no pronouncements within the WP community that Noisey is not a reliable source. I could be wrong but there are other places to debate that matter. So I would conclude that the Noisey review at [1] is at least partially valid, and there is another robust review from Consequence of Sound at [2]. That might be enough for basic notability but I think it's a bit of a stretch because otherwise this artist is mostly talked about in blogs. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 15:33, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You actually make a good case for inclusion. And articles about Titanic Sinclair have and will inevitably include information about Argo, as they worked together for a long and productive time. Her connection with Sinclair is relevant in terms of notability, as it seems she has retired from music and her musical history is tied-in with his still ongoing career. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think the two reviews are not quite enough, but would not argue with you or anyone else for voting "Weak Keep" based on those same sources. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 17:12, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep there is enough coverage such as Noisey, Conquest of Sound and Wired (the Poppy content could be added here as there is speculation that Poppy is Mars Argo) for WP:GNG to be passed Atlantic306 (talk) 16:19, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It needs some more RS, but the subject is notable. AlexEng^(TALK) 22:08, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I honestly don't believe there is enough coverage to justify an article, and coverage is about the only way we could argue for notability here. --Michig (talk) 09:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 01:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There's enough references for notability. Neptune's Trident (talk) 00:14, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And Neptune's Trident has been improving the page in the last couple of days, so the quality and material has changed for the better. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment And yet after a further two weeks, there is now a completely unsourced discography, but there are still only two sources that discuss Mars Argo (Noisey and Odyssey). The other four are articles about Poppy, and give Mars Argo nothing more than a name check. Of those two, Odyssey is an "... internet media company that operates based on a crowdsourced model, receiving articles from a base of thousands of volunteer authors ...". User-generated content has never been accepted as contributing to WP:GNG per WP:UGC: "Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is also generally unacceptable." So that leaves the Noisey webpage, and that's just not enough to establish notability, per WP:SIGCOV: "... multiple sources are generally expected." Without any explanation of why an exception to our polices should be made for Mars Argo, those policies clearly indicate deletion. The closer hopefully will examine the references in the light of this. --RexxS (talk) 22:04, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: does not meet WP:NMUSIC and significant RS coverage not found. This is not a viable article, as the notability / sources are just not there. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:33, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
From the WP:NMUSIC criteria: "Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability." Her style is compared, through the association with Titanic Sinclair, with the Poppy style and, although different, there is enough of an overlap that Argo has "become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style". There are only two representatives of the Sinclair-style, Mars Argo and Poppy. That Argo is consistently mentioned in articles about Sinclair is not trivial, as those sources create a pattern, and this pattern should be taken into consideration when ascertaining a notability claim. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:52, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J04n(talk page) 13:30, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Having briefly gone down the Poppy rabbithole a few months ago, I'm not surprised to find this article now existing, and likely to be notable. Even if this subject is not deemed independently notable, and there is some legitimate debate to be had over the best way to provide coverage of the pop culture weirdness that Titanic Sinclair has spawned, it would deserve coverage on the Sinclair article.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 14:35, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Isn't that an argument to merge the content into Titanic Sinclair (which anybody is free to do), not an argument to keep this non-notable article? --RexxS (talk) 22:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - No, because she is notable, as argued in above posts from myself and others, and because Sinclair and her created a successful project, which ended when she left. They both contributed to the project, so a merge to the Sinclair page would make her more or less Sinclair's creation, which isn't accurate. She had her own presence, and just because she no longer performs doesn't make her any less important in the progression of a notable style (Argo, Sinclair, and later Poppy). Randy Kryn (talk) 02:36, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - But she's not notable and the policy makes it clear. We go by the sources and if the overwhelming majority of sources merely mention her name but are actually coverage about Sinclair or Poppy, then that's where the content should go. Putting the sourced information mainly concerning Sinclair or Poppy into their respective articles doesn't "make her more or less Sinclair's creation", it's simply what the sources say. Now, if you are going to insist that Mars Argo is notable, you're going to have to answer the question "What are the multiple, independent, reliable sources that provide significant coverage of Mars Argo?" --RexxS (talk) 20:22, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      - The "Keep" editors, who at the very least seem to have made this a 'no consensus' result if not the obvious (to them) outright "Keep", see the references as adequate. May I point out that you were arguing, above, that Titanic Sinclair is not notable, and now you are advocating moving the Mars Argo information into the Titanic Sinclair page. Because of that alone, may I respectfully submit that your viewpoint in this one instance - the unique style created and represented by Sinclair, Argo, and later, Poppy - may be missing the notability of those three topics which others are seeing. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        Sinclair's debatable notability is yet another red-herring here. My viewpoint is equally irrelevant, because the delete argument relies simply on the failure to show sources to meet WP:GNG. The closer will have to acknowledge that and close with "delete" as that's where policy lies. The crux of it is that you can't name more than one independent, reliable source that provides significant coverage of Mars Argo, can you? --RexxS (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Fails WP:NMUSIC, and the sources don't go beyond promotional articles, and aren't from significant news outlets. UnsungKing123 (talk) 20:13, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: With a recent turn of events, the Lawsuit has brought some relevance to the topic of mars argo and is reported on a reliable source. http://www.tmz.com/2018/04/17/youtube-legal-feud-titanic-sinclair-mars-argo-thatpoppy/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.168.105 (talk) 07:05, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.