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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete, clearly fails WP:NACTOR, there is nothing about inheritance in our notability policy, no evidence that she passes WP:GNG.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Malana Lea

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Malana Lea (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Seems to only have one small role in Olympus has Fallen, only source is a small magazine. Sasquatch t|c 23:50, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. czar · · 00:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete At the present time, she fails WP:NACTOR. According to IMDb, she's appeared on a few TV shows, but it doesn't look like any of that would amount to a significant role; she also doesn't appear to have a large fan base. ALH (talk) 00:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The role in Olympus Has Fallen is obviously metaphorical. It's notable for the quasi-feminist angle, but more so the girl-with-a-gun manga connection. This role is much bigger than a simple movie review lets on. She has been in exclusive interviews, as here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH86seJS7dY Actually the whole point of adding the biography is that such an important strong female role in a block-buster (she is after all JUST AN ACTRESS) is that all of the biography information is spread out in different areas like that interview, Glady's magazine, twitter, Facebook etc. I've seen the movie. There is a message in the movie similar to Dr. Strangelove, Eyes Wide Shut, The Shining and Twilight's Last Gleaming, however that's going to be original research, so I have left it out. Let's just start by growing the bio. The rest will fall into place over time as movie critics get over the shock-and-awe aspect of the action. It's not quite up there with the Kubrick films, but clearly inspired. Jok2000 (talk) 02:16, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Further, here is a *negative* review from a rottentomatoes critic: "It's a terrible action film but a brilliant piece of North Korean propaganda. The American characters act so stupidly that you're pretty much rooting for Kim Jong-un. THAT'S HOW BAD IT IS." You can see that the message of de-escalating in Korea and Malana Lea's character seeming to *win* are not lost on the critic, he just doesn't *like* the hidden message. Malana Lea executes the role and the mission to disable all ICBMs almost flawlessly. The joke about the hashtag in deactivating the destruct sequence gives you a moment for pause in the movie -- what if all the ICBMs were destroyed in their sealed silos? It's as cruel as Twilight's Last Gleaming. Which is the other face-palm of the movie, but I digress. How many links to critical reviews of this aspect would you require for a keep, by the way? Be sure to read the negative ones. Jok2000 (talk) 02:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of those you listed would be considered too "reliable" in my books for denoting coverage. In general, blogs and youtube vlogs do not fall under the "reliable sources" umbrella unless they fall under some other major publication. See WP:SPS Sasquatch t|c 15:39, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider those listed as evidence of her fan base. There are blogs listing her under titles like "hot asian girl of the month" with a detailed filmography. Although self-published, it is evidence of a fan-base. I'll need some time to find film-industry magazines at the local magazine shop tonight. The movie is opening much higher world-wide than in the US (e.g. UK), as we discuss it, so articles are likely to appear in the next magazine cycle next week. Jok2000 (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - The IMDB credits serve to confirm the person is a working actor. The lack of significant coverage in reliable sources indicate that inclusion of this article on Wikipedia is no warranted at this time. -- Whpq (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment She continues to be interviewed by reliable media outlets. The last one was unfortunately in Chinese on some LA cable station. The show had clips from several movies and TV shows. If you want to find some yourself, search @MalanaLea on Twitter, or "Malana Lea Interview" on Youtube. If you have something against "bad guy characters", you can also search Youtube for the "bad guy" interview of Yune (Kang) and the "traitor" from Olympus has Fallen to see why it is not relevant when writing up actor articles. The actual significance of this actor is that she did take on a role of the Dr. Strangelove or Twilight's Last Gleaming caliber. If you read "Dr. Strangelove" in "On Kubrick", you can see that several notable actors of the era refused the role that Slim Pickens took (John Wayne) because the movie itself was too left wing for them. Olympus has Fallen is more subtle in the bunker, plot wise than George C. Scott's turnabouts in the War Room in Dr. Strangelove. It is as Malana Lea herself said, her role and the movie do not establish firmly anything about Koreans in general (she is ethnic Chinese, born in USA) and she and her role are important for establishing a non-jingoistic interpretation of the opposing side's mission in the movie, and is thus notable in that context, and considering the risk that actors in similar roles in the past like Burt Lancaster or Peter Sellers have taken. Jok2000 (talk) 04:54, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Reply - I'm unclear as to what you are trying to claim here. Are you saying her role in Olympus is iconic just like Pickens' role in Strangelove? -- Whpq (talk) 13:13, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Reply' - It's more like what Malana Lea said in her interview around about minute 39 on UBN radio's March 20, 2013 with her, that opportunities for her, being of Chinese ethnicity (or for any Asian actor) is that opportunities in blockbusters are more available now than before, in other words, a turning point both in the industry and for her career. In particular she sees opportunities in SciFi and fantasy forthcoming in Hollywood for the intelligent type of character she plays. She also mentions in the interview that she has done a lot of voice-over work that is uncredited and confidential. Anyway, I should say I don't fully understand the importance of the "working actor" reference above. In this interview she mentions that she went from bit parts, to Mad Man, and now felt that this character in Olympus has Fallen was her big break and change in her career. I'm not here to gaze into a crystal ball, but, if you want my personal opinion, I'm sick of Disney portraying asian actors in subordinate roles, like Brenda Song, for example (and she broke away from it in The Social Network). Here we have an opportunity to begin an article about an intelligent scientist given the opportunity to replay a position like that in previous classic movies (Twilight's Last Gleaming and Dr. Strangelove). From my POV, if you assume the ICBM's would have been destroyed and contained in their silos, then the mission that she executes is actually moral, so the director has chosen her to be in such a position and people curious about the movie Olympus Has Fallen may want to know more about the actor chosen for this unusual, not ground-breaking, but demarcating role. Jok2000 (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Reply - It's her own (and I guess your) opinion that is this is some sort of breakthrough role for her that is industry shaking. But neither the personal opinion of the actor, nor your personal opinion is useful for establish notability; her's is not indpendent, and yours would be original research. -- Whpq (talk) 18:48, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Reply - The above is original research, which is why it's not in the article. I happen to value my opinion. ;) More to the point, when the actors like Yune (Kang) quote the director, it's not an opinion. That the movie is about ICBMs is also not an opinion ,it is fact, etc. I'll save you the effort of listening to the interview however, she was giving her opinion that the director of Olympus Has Fallen's casting choices would be reflected in movies by Asian directors as well. The bottom line is that we are giving opinions about deletion, and I've found lots, as well as facts. I don't deny it. I do believe in intellectual honesty, I did say it was not a ground-breaking role, which implies I would agree that it is not industry shaking, just important. I think the key element to my "opinion" about the movie and her role is that I'm not an American; which is important as well since the producers are trying to make a movie that will sell well globally as well. Jok2000 (talk) 20:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete no evidence of meeting WP:GNG, nor the requirement of secondary sources that is needed to meet that guideline. Probably a WP:TOOSOON case. Secret account 15:21, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment WP:GNG is met because Olympus Has Fallen meets GNG for the reasons explained above (unintentionally ironic movie driving curious film buffs to surprisingly good team of "baddies".) See also black-listed site "examiner dot com" article. Jok2000 (talk) 04:01, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment - Notability is not inherited. Your lengthy explanation is self-admitted original research. -- Whpq (talk) 10:03, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment - I reject your generalization to the lengthy part of this discussion being original research. The only original research is the parallel to Twilight's Last Gleaming and Dr. Stangelove. That is all that I "admit" for your consideration as interesting original research. That notable sources (examiner and many comprable reviews of Olympus Has Fallen) have recognized that "the Baddies" have a good team is not inheritance of anything, it is proof that the baddies have a good team. Jok2000 (talk) 19:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Reply - Arguments are boring I know, so since you want more notability, here is the list of films and TV spots she has been in, so that we could create a page similar to Rick Yune or Doona Bae in the future: Flexx 2014, Olympus Has Fallen 2013, Wedding Party (TV) 2012-2013, Bitch in Apt. 23 2012-2013, Love Sick Diaries 2010, True Jackson 2008-2012, My First Crush 2008, Wizards of Waverly Place episode "Private Practive", Mad Men TV, 2007 "Ling", House, MD "Fawn", Desperate Houseives "Mariko", CSI "Lauren Walderon", Manor 1998 "Maya", Young and Restless "Alice", Compulsions 2009. In several of these, she's credited as "Elizabeth Tsing", although I have the impression I'm the only one in this discussion who ever read the list of movies she's been in. I don't recognize the credentials of any of the editors requesting "delete". Not one of them mentioned her previous name "Elizabeth Tsing", which is a strong tell that they have put no effort into their words, and also interesting that there are all sorts of broken links on Wikipedia to that name in the episodes listed above. So if the article is kept, the links could be fixed up. Pretty much notable just from references on Wikipedia itself, wouldn't you agree? Jok2000 (talk) 19:43, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Summary - It's been 7 days since the AfD nomination. The discussion centers on WP:GNG and why there is no inheritance from Olympus has Fallen. In actuality, the notability guidelines suggest Merge if the role is important to the movie, however recognition of the ICBM topic of the movie or the citable "baddies had a good team" and the sociological aspects of the movie and the casting of the baddies are a topic for researchers. The article as it stands would not cloud the Olympus Has Fallen article nor hinder film researchers looking into unintentionally ironic movies, or movies where the "baddies" have a good team (typically in Film Noir). Thus by keeping the cited article separate, film researchers may find the information they need for their research without encountering any "original research" undercurrents that a merge would entail. So being notable enough to merge, but causing suggestions of OR or NPOV inside of the Olympus Has Fallen article if done, it is better to leave it as a stand-alone article for serious researchers to find the relevant facts on their own accord. Or in a sentence, "Because she's a baddie in the movie, a positive article about an actor would skew a merge into a movie article." Citations: "Olympus Has Fallen might be the most inadvertently un-American film ever made" http://www.redcarpetcrash.com/review-olympus-has-fallen-is-unintentionally-anti-american/ Just Google for "Olympus Has Fallen Unintentionally" It's a legitimate topic. Jok2000 (talk) 15:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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