Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Major League Baseball team captains
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Nominator has withdrawn but this discussion has been open long enough and has enough participation for a "keep" close Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Major League Baseball team captains[edit]
- Major League Baseball team captains (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Completely unreferenced article that subjectively describes a concept that, as far as I know, is not officially defined anywhere in the official rules of baseball. Only three (out of 30) teams have officially named captains, two of which have sufficient notability to have their own articles (List of New York Yankees team captains and List of Boston Red Sox captains). The concept as it applies to Major League Baseball as a whole is not notable. —KuyaBriBriTalk 18:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. —Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Deleteper Kuyabribri. It unsourced, and only 10% of teams bother to have a captain at all. --Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]Deletethis could have been notable if all teams have captains; but since that is not the case, such list is unnecessary—Chris!c/t 19:04, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. —Chris!c/t 19:20, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete mostly because of the lack of sources. DARTH SIDIOUS 2 (Contact) 19:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I withdrew my vote for deletion, as it was based on the lack of sources, something that has been fixed. I'm still not voting for keeping, as the article is pretty short and at the moment I'm unsure about it, should it be deleted or not. I take some time to consider, and then maybe vote again. DARTH SIDIOUS 2 (Contact) 15:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete For lack of sources and lack of reason to be a stand-alone list. Staxringold talkcontribs 22:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]Delete- As a concept, it is merely an honorary title. Any references that could be added, I suspect would just state "so-and-so was named Captain", without adding context or meaning to the title.Neonblak talk - 22:26, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Strong keep - The comments in this AFD suffer from "recentism." The position of team captain has a long history in baseball. During the 19th and early 20th century many or most teams had a player designated as team captain, and he was expected to carry out many of the responsibilities now handled by managers or coaches. A check of Google Books finds team captains mentioned in dozens of books [1]. MLB's official rules do, in fact, briefly mention a team captain (see rule 4.01 on p. 32 of [2]) in a context in which responsibility for the team's lineup may be assigned either to the manager or the captain. I'll try to add a few references. It may be tough to write a long article, but a well-referenced short article is certainly possible and appropriate for Wikipedia. BRMo (talk) 23:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I've expanded the article a little and added some references. If this article is kept, I'd recommend moving it to Team captain (baseball) or Captain (baseball); team captains are probably more important in youth and college baseball than in MLB, and it doesn't make sense to have an article specific to MLB without having the more general article. BRMo (talk) 03:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Withdraw nomination in light of recent expansion and referencing, and move to Captain (baseball). Article as it is written now applies more to baseball as a whole, not just to MLB, and is an appropriate short article. I will ask all the outstanding delete !voters to reconsider. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think moving to Captain (baseball) is a good idea.—Chris!c/t 19:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In light of the nomination being withdrawn, I will remove my "delete" recomendation. However, the comments made by BRMo support my position that the Captain title is an honorary one, and has been for at least the last 110 years, I wouldn't call objections in this realm "recentism". Captain used to refer to the person operating the club on field, which is what the Manager does now, so in effect, they are the same position, different name. The honorary title of Captain, that is being used today, has no precedent.Neonblak talk - 19:40, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll mostly agree with Neonblak, but with a caveat regarding timing. When I read newspapers from the period 1900–1930, they seem to treat the captain as an important position on a major league team. I haven't run across an article defining what the captain's responsibilities actually were, but it would make sense that when coaching staffs were still small, a senior player would serve in a coach-like role. I've actually seen more documentation of this in accounts of the Negro leagues, where teams generally didn't carry coaches. There, newspapers sometimes report that the captain, rather than the manager, switched pitchers or called plays. For the last 70 years or so, though, I'll certainly agree that the captain has been strictly honorary in professional baseball. BRMo (talk) 14:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The official rules from an 1898 Spalding Guide confirm my guess that baseball captains in the late 19th and early 20th century carried many of the on-field responsibilities now assigned to managers and coaches. I've updated the article with this information. BRMo (talk) 03:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll mostly agree with Neonblak, but with a caveat regarding timing. When I read newspapers from the period 1900–1930, they seem to treat the captain as an important position on a major league team. I haven't run across an article defining what the captain's responsibilities actually were, but it would make sense that when coaching staffs were still small, a senior player would serve in a coach-like role. I've actually seen more documentation of this in accounts of the Negro leagues, where teams generally didn't carry coaches. There, newspapers sometimes report that the captain, rather than the manager, switched pitchers or called plays. For the last 70 years or so, though, I'll certainly agree that the captain has been strictly honorary in professional baseball. BRMo (talk) 14:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep The article seems to have relevant information regarding a notable - albeit uncommon - institution/tradition within baseball: team Captain. A word of caution: we don't delete WP articles simply because we don't think their topic is notable. We delete WP articles when virtually no one, outside those directly involved, thinks the article's topic is notable. BlueRobe (talk) 07:34, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep captains is a notable distinction even in baseball. Nergaal (talk) 14:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per new sources and nominator's request to withdraw request for deletion. We may only have three captains now, but great importance was placed on this title in baseball's early days for many decades. Move to Captain (baseball) for clarity. Vodello (talk) 17:35, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.