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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. –Juliancolton | Talk 17:51, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Madagascar–Russia relations[edit]

Madagascar–Russia relations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

The Malagasies (sp?) and the modern Russians are both fine, proud peoples. And I bet they'd get along great if they knew each other, or were neighbors, or had overlapping interests, or something. But as it stands Madagascar and the Russian state don't have much to do with each other -- certainly no reliable sources demonstrate they have much to do with each other. So I believe this unsourced stub should be deleted. Bali ultimate (talk) 19:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Can I ask what sources you searched in? Because it certainly was not Russian sources. [1][2][3][4][5] Contacts between Russia and Madagascar date back to the days of Peter the Great. Details will also be found in publications such as (67)9 Е 60 Емельянов А.Л., Забытая история Великого острова: [Мадагаскар в середине XIX – нач. XX в.] / А.Л. Емельянов, П.А. Мыльцев; АН СССР. Ин-т востоковедения. – М.: Наука, 1990. – 141 с.: 8 л. ил.: ил. – (Рассказы о странах Востока). – Библиография: с. 133–140. This is a subject which is going to really be covered in offline sources, and if you would like to pay for my airfare to Moscow, I would be more than happy to travel to do research on this topic. I could even include details relating to the numerous treaties signed between the USSR and Madagascar, some of which carried over to the RF, and some historical trade figures. The topic is notable. --Russavia Dialogue 20:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A challenge -- pick whichever of the completely uncontextualized "sources" you've provided above. Pick the strongest -- and tell us what sentence or paragraph it might support on the topic of "madagascar-russia relations." This would be helpful.Bali ultimate (talk) 20:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As non-notable compared to any other random two countries. The single event listed as being in any way significant was directed to the whole continent of Africa, not specifically about Madagascar–Russia. I also note that the text of the first paragraph is incomplete... these were definite cookie-cutter stubs (as if we couldn't tell before) made with no assertion of notability and no attempt to do so. New articles like this are more damaging than helpful. --BlueSquadronRaven 21:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • More sources Additionally, there is this (pages 43-66) and this (pages 54-80) which describe in detail early contacts of the Russian Empire with Madagascar. This is just two documents (published by kdu.ru). There is also this, but at 235euro, it is a bit out of my price range, but judging by their other volumes, they will likely go into detail of the relations. --Russavia Dialogue 21:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A challenge pick whichever is the stongest (or, heck, do it with all of them!) of these "sources" you've provided, and in the English language write a sentence or a paragraph that explains what what they say about relations between the modern states of Madagascar and Russia. Attached to these summary/translations, provide the source they come from and the page or pages that are relevant in particular. In this way, we can evaluate these sources and perhaps be convinced.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does this mean that you have nothing specifically to tell us here? I presume you're saying it has something to do with a nationa called "Russia?" It's all not clear. Please provide, specifically, at least one source that you think establishes notablithy for this whole topic of "Russia-Madagascar relations" so we can evaluate it. THis is the third time i've asked.Bali ultimate (talk) 00:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Both of you have a point: on the one hand, there is a Template:Foreign relations of the Soviet Union, with relations specifically of the USSR and various other countries; on the other hand (if Russavia's sources can indeed be turned into article prose, which remains to be seen), does it make sense in this case to split USSR-Madagascar and Russia-Madagascar? The latter is after all the successor state of the former, so the whole topic could plausibly be covered in one location. - Biruitorul Talk 00:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not an unreasonable question. I won't be able to give an answer until what sources and information is proposed (and to be honest, claims about soviet/malagasay friendship in the cold war without info on money, real commitments, general RS stuff won't fly for me either -- and even then, says little about modern day "Russia's" relationship with the country.)Bali ultimate (talk) 00:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Sources noted by Russavia indicate it's a notable subject. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the relations date back to Soviet time, I think, when there were attempts of building a socialist society on the island. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 09:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Bali is deeply misunderstanding the nature of these article; it's not only the current trade agreements and relationship, but also in the past decades, and under Ratsiraka Madagascar was well known to be a pillar of Soviet influence (well, except to Bali apparently). Anyways, just to make all happy, I'll provide a reliable source [6].--Aldux (talk) 13:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Sources are clearly available for expansion, and that is sufficient. historic relations count as well as present ones. This was one of the most significant attempts of the USSR to establish a presence in Africa. DGG (talk) 19:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another source Диссертация ГЕРМАНЧУКА Максима Николаевича: «Становление и развитие внешней политики Мадагаскара: проблемы и перспективы (1960-2005 гг.)» This is the Kandidat dissertation of Maxim Germanchuk at MGIMO on the development of the foreign policy of Madagascar, including information on the negative-trend of RF-Malagasy relations and their future prospects. However, this dissertation will need to be sourced from the MGIMO library. There are many topics which will have much authoritative sourcing offline, and this is an example of one. Also, WP:STUB applies here, I think it is has been established here that there are notable relations, but I do believe it is inappropriate to use AfD as an attempt to force editors to expand articles. --19:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)Russavia Dialogue
  • Keep per WP:HEY, my usual standards. Bearian (talk) 00:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Any article that deals with a proven history of bilateral relations b\w any countries deserves its own special place in WP. KNewman (talk) 07:41, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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