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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. I would have preferred to see the nominator's continued response to developments in this discussion but that didn't occur. So, given the comments offered here by participants, I'm closing this discussion as Keep. Liz Read! Talk! 00:05, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Low Yok Lin[edit]

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Low Yok Lin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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article, in its own words, only makes passing reference to establishing notability. it is not ready for mainspace. a draft exists in the draftspace so it is not suitable for draftify. microbiologyMarcus (petri dish) 23:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. The references are from newspaper articles dating back to the early 1930s. I hope this is the right format/forum to provide my feedback. While the article may currently lack extensive "mainstream" references, there are significant news articles dating back to the early 1930s but may not be picked up by the "mainstream" sources. These articles provide historical context on his contribution during those early years.

Furthermore, it's worth noting that this article seeks to address a broader goal: to recognize and document the contributions of earlier Chinese immigrants to Malaysia, who may have been successful and impactful in their communities but have been overlooked in historical research. Limited research or a lack of recognition in the academic community may have resulted in the omission of their stories.

By expanding the article with references to historical news articles and encouraging those who may have information about other such Chinese immigrants to contribute, we aim to shed light on these often underrepresented but important figures in history. Additionally, one of the goals of this article is to provide a platform for those who may have known Low Yok Lin to contribute their insights and potentially enrich the article with more detailed information and context. By allowing exposure to those who knew him, we aim to gather a richer source of information and provide a more comprehensive account of his life and contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LauSawLan (talk • contribs) 01:00, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Courtesy link: Draft:Low Yok Lin (the same article by the same editor, in an earlier state).
    User:LauSawLan, your goal is certainly a laudable one, and I hope you're able to bring attention to early Chinese emigrants to Malaysia so their lives can be better documented and their stories remembered.
    However, Wikipedia is not the right platform for this. The article is what we call Original research. There is even information from oral interviews, which we can't include by policy. What you term "mainstream" sources above are what we call Secondary sources, and are required in almost every case for a subject to meet one of our notability guidelines.
    Wikipedia is structured to follow the biases of published sources. We only follow, and do not lead. The number of underrepresented groups in history vastly outbalances the number of well represented groups, but Wikipedia cannot fix that.
    In other words, if no one has yet seen fit to write about this person, we can't be the first to do so. I really do hope you're able to continue with this project, and I'm not sure where to point as a more appropriate venue to continue the work at.
    Sources exist for this subject, as is clear already from the article, and the draft is a previous revision, so I think that either Userfy or Draftify over existing draft could be outcomes within policy. It's also my understanding that Wikiversity has policies allowing original research, so it may also be appropriate to Transwikify to Wikiversity if the author would like to continue this work there and I'm not mistaken about that project's original research policies.
    I searched for Chinese sources using the subject's birth name 劉毓麟, and got (on the first three pages of google results) no true positives. Apart from modern social media accounts of living people, I got at least three false positives: one orchestral music specialist who was still alive in the 2010s, one law professor who died in 1959, and one minor government official about a generation prior to the subject. Folly Mox (talk) 10:27, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Folly thanks for taking the time to go through the article and provide the feedback. Really appreciate it. I have removed the oral parts in case it gives the impression that they are hearsays. I have already substantiated most of it with written source from mainstream media (not blogs but national newspaper in Malaysia with some feature article from newpaper on his life). The sources (other than the few listed in the reference), came from Chinese newspaper and you will not be able to find them by just checkingGoogle, because they are in some repositories/ archive section of old newspapers. If you like to find Lou Yoke lin, you may try typing "劉毓麟”+“太平” in the website https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers It searches all the archives of past newspaper from both Singapore and Malaysia. The reason why I use this is because it uses the "name of the subject" and "his hometown" . This is how they identify people in the past. I have also done research to check with people who knew him to make sure the articles are indeed referring to him. LauSawLan (talk) 12:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks like this has some potential, but is not quite ready for mainspace at the moment. I suggest Draftify over existing draft.-KH-1 (talk) 01:31, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi KH-I wanted to express my heartfelt gratitude for your feedback and your commitment to upholding Wikipedia's standards of notability. Your input has been instrumental in shaping the profile of Yok Lin, and I appreciate your dedication to maintaining the quality of content on the platform.
  • I have made every effort to ensure that the information in the article is substantiated by credible sources from mainstream media and since it is not just pure reporting but some feature articles, which is equivalent to secondary research (although not in the academic space) + leadership positions he held . It is rather exhaustive at this stage as I also interviewed people who knew him. On that note, some informed he was a close business partners with many luminaries during his era such as Tan Kah Kee ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tan_Kah_Kee) etc. I cannot find written sources so I have omitted it at this stage. If you have anything specific that I may further improve on, please do let me know as I have been scratching my head on how to make it better to meet Wikipedia's standard.
  • I feel that people who reads about Yok lin in Wikipedia( if this were to come true) may add on more details from their own research that i may not have at this juncture. I find that many of the past leaders did not have the luxury we have today where just a click of a button, we get all the exposure and secondary research becomes almost automatic(even AI can do it for us next time), so they need a little different approach for research.
    The intent is to have the stories of these group of leaders inspire future generations to follow is his footsteps. And if Wikipedia may be the avenue to do that, it would really change lives. LauSawLan (talk) 02:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm willing to keep an open mind on this, pending a more thorough review of the sources. However, the impression that I get that is that even within the historical context/place, his contributions may not be significant enough to warrant a standalone article. Might be better suited in a sub-section of a page on the "Malayan Broadcasting Service", or Malaysian Chinese.-KH-1 (talk) 11:31, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: LauSawLan (talk · contribs), would you select the two to six independent reliable sources that provide the most detailed coverage about Low Yok Lin (traditional Chinese: 劉毓麟; simplified Chinese: 刘毓麟)? Would you then provide quotes or make a summary of how each source provides significant coverage about him?

    To address the concerns about original research, I recommend removing any content that is not supported by a reliable published source. Thank you, Cunard (talk) 01:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi Cunard thanks for the tips, let me come back to you asap as I am travelling( overseas) right now and need to find time to work on the article.
    LauSawLan LauSawLan (talk) 13:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you, LauSawLan (talk · contribs). The AfD opened at 23:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC) and is scheduled to close seven days later at sometime after 23:33, 31 October 2023. I ask that the closer relist the AfD to give LauSawLan one more week to work on this. If this needs more than a week, then a draftify to give LauSawLan even more time would be the best approach. Cunard (talk) 23:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    hi Cunard- I have included what you asked and quoted 2 publication.

See [1]

References

  1. ^ https://sites.google.com/view/nanyangcelebritieslowyoklin/home

The most significant is the Yok Lin being listed in 南洋名人集传 or Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang, which records of prominent Chinese in Southeast Asia. Most of these Chinese living in Malaya and Singapore in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were notable for their righteous characters and life contributions. They are found in NUS repositories and NUS is a trusted source. NUS is the 8th university in the world (QS World University Rankings 2024: NUS rises three places to rank 8th globally) I trust this is sufficient and my sources all are backed by newspaper articles.There is no heresays,as i have removed everything that cannot be substantiated. I believe more information will surface when this article is exposed. LauSawLan (talk) 16:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

LauSawLan (talk · contribs), thank you for providing this source and quotes. Would you provide more details about Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang? Who is the author? Who is the publisher? Did the author or publisher have any affiliation with Low Yok Lin (are they independent of him)?

Would you provide a second source that gives significant coverage of Low Yok Lin? At least two sources are needed to establish notability.

Cunard (talk) 08:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I've copyedited the article to remove promotional content, unreliable sources, and original research. If Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang is an independent reliable source, and if LauSawLan can link and quote one or two additional sources that discuss Low Yok Lin, I would support keeping this article as passing Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.

    Cunard (talk) 08:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi Cunard- thanks again for taking time to review the article. For ease of reference, you may refer to Sources - Sources (google.com)This source has been extensively utilized in academic studies on the overseas Chinese, who have made significant contributions to Malaysia and Singapore. It was published as early as the 1920s. From what I found, the digitized version contains the bibliographic information about the publication
    Nanyang Celebrity Collection, Volume 1
    Nanyang Celebrity Collection,
    ContributorWu Yanong
    Publisher-Dianshi Zhai, 1922
    Orginal From-Comell University
    21 Oct 2014
    I think this publication is a "landmark" reference since it is used by researchers around the world. i need more time to dig out more information as i am still traveling and taking time to refine this article. Thanks again for your guidance and feedback. LauSawLan (talk) 14:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting by request of one of the participants. Right now, the consensus is leaning towards Draftification.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:14, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • It seems the 南洋名人集傳 source has the same tenor as a Who's Who. It definitely seems to be a reliable source, but uncertain if it establishes notability, since IIRC Who's Who doesn't. Uncertain if it's a truly independent source or if anyone could get in there with a smol payment, but neither situation would be markedly unusual. The series editor was 林博愛 (Lin Bo'ai). It looks like it was published in several volumes or possibly instalments. A 集傳 is a compilation of biographies. Folly Mox (talk) 01:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Folly
    Based on what i could find, for “南洋名人集传” / Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang, the editorial committee selected the biographies of prominent Chinese personalities in Southeast Asia, especially those who contributed to the society, culture, economy, and politics of their region. The biographies were mostly written by the editors themselves, based on their personal knowledge or interviews with the subjects. The subjects did not have to submit any data or pay any fees to be included in the book series. If I were to assume for a moment that the above is not true, with so many universities globally ( Standford, Cornell etc ,Sources - Sources (google.com)) using them for research, it is unlikely that those listed merely had to pay for inclusion, which means the data would have been biased. Furthermore, any reputable research body would typically avoid such biased data and ensure that their research is conducted with a high degree of objectivity and integrity.

On a separate note, the newspaper articles on Yok Lin's leadership roles in social and economic areas provide a check and balance instead of relying on one source.

The who's who seems to be info filled by the individual

Extract from website , "Most of the material is self-reported, supplied through publisher questionnaires."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Whos-Who-in-America

The one from 南洋名人集传 or Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang are from editors who choosed their subject on a wider scope include social and economic impact


Hence, they apppear different from an entry criteria. 

LauSawLan (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Additional criteria says: "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included."

    Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Any biography says: "3. The person has an entry in a country's standard national biographical dictionary (e.g. the Dictionary of National Biography)." Biographical dictionary lists reference publications titled Who's Who as an example. I consider inclusion in a national Who's Who publication to be a strong indicator of notability if the publisher is reputable and if it is an independent source.

    Nanyang is "the Chinese term for the warmer and fertile geographical region along the southern coastal regions of China and beyond, otherwise known as the 'South Sea' or Southeast Asia". This makes the book cover an even higher level than a national biographical dictionary.

    From what LauSawLan and FollyMox have found in their research, Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang (Chinese: 南洋名人集传) seems to be an independent reliable source that materially contributes to establishing notability.

    LauSawLan (talk · contribs), you wrote, "On a separate note, the newspaper articles on Yok Lin's leadership roles in social and economic areas provide a check and balance instead of relying on one source." Would you post a summary or quotes of one or two of the newspaper articles that best establish "Yok Lin's leadership roles in social and economic areas"? The best newspaper sources would contain significant coverage of him and have minimal non-independent content like quotes from him.

    Cunard (talk) 09:27, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think I'd probably translate this source's name as Collected Biographies of Prominent People in the South Pacific or something similar, since Nanyang as a transliterated toponym usually indicates Nanyang, Henan.
    Glad to hear it's more of a national biography than a Who's Who. Early Republican China was uh kinda warlordy, and everyone's gotta eat. Anyway though I did some more digging and I have found zero indication that this source is anything other than reliable and independent, so agree that it contributes to notability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:35, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cunard Folly and everyone who have taken the time to contribute and provide the invaluable feedback. It really helped me to improve the article. I was down with flu these few days, so pardon my delay in replying .

As for additional reference:

A) His contribution during the Japanese occupation :I thought this one is probably rather interesting. I omitted it in the article because it is about the war time atrocities during the Japanese occupation in Taiping (there are probably more if one searches more deeply)

  • This **article 李永球-Lee Eng Kew: 太平籌賑會婦女部主任    is written by the author of the book 'Japanese Hands: Three Years and Eight Months of Japanese Occupation in Taiping,' who also has a website on many feature articles. His book is also available 日本手：太平日據三年八個月 | BooKu (bookumy.com)
    Summary of the *article
    The main story of the** article above, was about Li Xiuzhong , a key figure in the story, serving as the director of the Women's Department of the Taiping Relief Association. She joined the Malayan People's Anti-Japanese Army to resist the Japanese invasion in 1941 and was unfortunately arrested and killed in 1944 while fighting for the resistance.
  • In the **article ,Liu Yilin was mentioned as the President of the Taiping Rubber Association. The association had a significant role in the Taiping Relief Association's efforts to support China's resistance against Japan during the Japanese occupation.
  • Liu Yilin, along with other leaders such as Huang Zenan, Du Rong, and Huang Jinggao, also contributed to commemorating the sacrifices made by individuals like Li Xiuzhong, who served as the director of the Women's Department of the Taiping Relief Association. They petitioned the Chinese Kuomintang government to honor Li Xiuzhong's contributions and sacrifices. The passage also highlighted the importance of overseas Chinese communities in raising funds and providing support for the anti-Japanese efforts during this period.
  • Comments:
    During the Japanese occupation, many atrocities were committed against civilians. In fact, it is well-known that anyone who was found to be against the Japanese during that time, whether directly, indirectly, or merely suspected, was often executed and tortured. Therefore, Liu Yulin's action was a brave and selfless act.
    About the war- Japanese occupation of Malaya - Wikipedia
    additional info Home (google.com)
B) I added commentary to the biography. Many of the citations I included in the Wikipedia article had already covered the subject extensively, but I decided to supplement the content with information from news articles and feature pieces for context. Rubber was a cornerstone of the economy during that era, and it was mentioned that he owned more than 100 acres of land, indicating a significant role in employment and considerable influence during his time.

see-https://sites.google.com/view/lowyoklinadditionalinfo/home?authuser=6 I hope this is sufficient.Have a good weekend.

  • Comment: Thank you for the additional source, LauSawLan (talk · contribs). With the Collected Biographies of Prominent People in the South Pacific book source, we are very close to proving that Low Yok Lin meets Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. We just need one more source that provide significant coverage about him.

    This article from Sin Chew Daily mentions Low Yok Lin (traditional Chinese: 劉毓麟; simplified Chinese: 刘毓麟) twice in an article that is primarily about Li Xiuzhong so is not by itself sufficient to being the second source that provides significant coverage about Low Yok Lin. Would you quote or provide a summary of one or more other reliable sources that give significant coverage of Low Yok Lin (at least a few paragraphs of coverage)? This would be the easiest way to establish notability about the subject even though there is a different way we can use but that requires more work.

    The other way is Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says:

    People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.

    • If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.
    The guideline says "multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". We could list many sources that provide less substantial coverage about Low Yok Lin to demonstrate notability, but I am hoping that will not be necessary if we can find a second reliable source that provides substantial coverage.

    I think this discussion is making good progress and would support a second relist to give more time to discuss the sources. Thank you.

    Cunard (talk) 10:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Per Cunard @ 10:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC), relisting for another seven days for a chance to find additional sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep: Seems to be a rather common name, so you get several hits on more recent individuals. I can't find sourcing, but the discussion about the sources used seems credible, I'm ok with a !keep. Oaktree b (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Coincidentally, it's also Wikipedia Asian Month; I try to contribute there but my articles are mostly dinky little things compared to this effort. If I was able to contribute this much knowledge and submit the article there, I'd be very proud of the work involved. Not that is really helps in AfD, but the amount of digging through old sources involved here is to be commended. Oaktree b (talk) 23:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    thanks Oaktree b and Cunard and everyone who has contributed and given the feedback.
    My primary objective in publishing this article is to unveil individuals who were pioneers and made significant contributions to nation-building, encompassing economic, social, and community aspects, in Malaya during the 1900s when the Chinese diaspora in Malaya was at its peak. The challenge in creating such articles lies in uncovering research materials from that era, as immigrants during that time were predominantly focused on fulfilling their basic needs. Thus, I hope their 'notability score' may be adapted or recalibrated to treat the past differently and not be subjected to the same contemporary yardstick.
    Nonetheless, Yok Lin's profile still received sufficient press coverage (an indication of his notability), and he also stood out due to the numerous leadership positions he held in economic and social establishments, which were covered by the mainstream press. While the sheer number of secondary articles was not abundant (perhaps due to my lack of access), they are compensated for by the quality and credibility of one of the research paper that I managed to find, namely the 'Prominent People in Nanyang.',' (Sources - Sources (google.com) and Research Article (google.com))which serves to this day, as an invaluable reference for academics researching individuals who made marked contributions to society in Nanyang (South east Asia region).
    Other than the many citations that I have already listed in the article, which covered Yok Lin's contribution ( they also included feature articles), there are definitely more secondary research materials available, but I currently lack access to them. I reached out to the Fujian/Hokkien Association and Hua Lian School, where he once served as chairman for both establishments. They informed me that they do keep records of the names of their past leaders (this is how I uncovered Yok Lin's photo as well), but detailed records of their past leaders' contributions and articles written on them are yet to be scanned into online repositories. They informed me that these materials exist in manual manuscripts, and unfortunately, I couldn't persuade them to send them to me. After several emails and phone calls, they suggested I pay a visit in person( i don't live in Malaya/Malaysia) and check with the relevant person when I am there. So, this is how far I could get thus far.
    To recap on my findings so far
    a) Economic Impact:
    Newspaper articles covered his repeated election as the president of the Rubber Association and comments on his popularity
    ref: "Liu Yulin of the Taiping Chinese Gum Association was the president of the Taiping Chinese Rubber Association(太平華人樹膠公會劉毓麟蟬聯正會長 南洋商报) 10 Feb 1952". Malaysian Chinese Paper, Nanyang Siang Pau(南洋商报). Retrieved 25 October 2023"NewspaperSG-Taiping Chinese Rubber Association Liu Yulin and Huang Jiu are appointed as the president and vice president (太平華人樹膠公會劉毓麟黃九親任正副會長)". eresources.nlb.gov.sg (南洋商报 (Nanyang Siang Pau)). 20 Dec 1949. Retrieved 2023-10-28
    Rubber was then a key economic pillar during the early 1900s and a driving force for immigrants going to Malaya. Another feature article in the newspaper mentioned that he owned hundreds of acres of rubber plantation. This in itself was a driver for employment. In yet another article, it was noted that he was invited to press conferences to provide advice on the economic situation in Malaya, particularly for the rubber industry ( "The market conditions in Taiping have become increasingly stable, Liu Yulin(太平和豐兩埠市况已日趨穩定劉毓麟與王振相二君)1 March 1934". Nanyang Siang Pau ( Malaysian Chinese Newspaper). Retrieved 25 October 2023.)
    b) Social Impact:
    Both the press and research papers mentioned his key leadership roles in social causes. Eg. founder of the '励德社' (Lì Dé Shè) Society, which translates to 'Society of Encouraging Virtue' or 'Society for Promoting Moral Integrity.' It is often used to refer to organizations or groups that aim to promote and encourage virtuous behavior and moral values in society, and this term is associated with traditional Chinese ethical and Confucian principles.
    He was also the Chairman of the Fujian Association. This association provided the Chinese immigrants with resources and means to settle down in Malaya. He also founded an association dedicated to promoting character building and good behavior.
    c) Contributions to Education:
    He served as the chairman of Hua Lian, one of the oldest schools in Malaya. I managed to obtain a copy of his photo from the school and this was also mentioned in another feature article in the press about his appointment.
    He also mentioned in newspaper press for having contributed to other school building funds
    ref:
    1. "Yongwupo Shihua School fundraising construction school building(永梧坡時化學校募捐建築校舍鳴謝) 28 March 1927". SingaporeSG- Chinese News paper in Malaysia-(Nanyang Siang Pau), 28 March 1927, Page 5. Retrieved 25 October 2023.
    2.contribution to overseas chinese university, Xiamen where he was mentioned as one of the donors-https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/digitised/article/nysp19350211-1.2.33.3?qt=%22%E5%8A%89%20%E6%AF%93%20%E9%BA%9F%22,%20%22%E5%A4%AA%20%E5%B9%B3%22&q=%22%E5%8A%89%E6%AF%93%E9%BA%9F%E2%80%9D%2B%E2%80%9C%E5%A4%AA%E5%B9%B3%E2%80%9D)
    d) Participation in Numerous Charitable Events:
    They are all recorded in newspaper articles.
    1. ^ "英屬British Taiping Fujian Overseas Chinese Relief Fever(太平閩僑之賑捐熱)". Retrieved 25 October 2023
    2. NewspaperSG - Huang Laofen, a sculptor of millimang, held a solo exhibition in Taiping, and Liu Yulin presided over the ribbon cutting (nlb.gov.sg) ( here he has convinced the famous sculptor to donate part of his earnings to Hua Lian school)
    With the above, I hope that this article is given some exposure to bring to light not only his contributions but also those of others who contributed during those early years. Hopefully, others who knew him may come forward to share more information. And in the process, inspire the current and future generations to play a part in society. LauSawLan (talk) 19:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for these additional links and research, LauSawLan (talk · contribs)! Cunard (talk) 01:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - notable. Thank you Cunard, LauSawLan and Oaktree b for your persistence. We need these sorts of historical articles more than a lot of popular culture stuff but they can be a lot of work to properly source.
--A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 01:31, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks A.B, Cunard and Oaktree. Your constructive comments and suggestions have not only helped me improve the article but have also enhanced my understanding of the Wikipedia community's standards. I am truly impressed by how people here invest their own time and effort to provide all the feedback. by the way I'm new to the Wikipedia scene may I know what will happen now after 7 days will I be the one who need to remove the notes of deletion or somebody from the admin team will do so LauSawLan (talk) 14:49, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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