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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Nomination Withdrawn. It has become apparent that individual nominations of each list of this type is pointless, and a consensus on what to do with the entire group of lists of this type is needed, and will result in a broader consensus with less work. I have created a discussion page at: Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Lists of Ethnic Americans to try and determine a policy on these type of lists. Please join the discussion there. Thank you. Leuko 14:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lists of African Americans[edit]

Lists of African Americans (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Portuguese Americans, relisting as individual AfD's. Precedent for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of German Americans. Leuko 18:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am adding the following sub-lists to this nomination for the same reasons as previously stated. Leuko 19:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Notable ethnic group, and that a list of German Americans was deleted does not mean this list should be deleted. And in case editors are not aware, a whole bunch of other List of XXX American articles have been individually nominated for deletion. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: An article on the ethnicity would be encyclopedic and welcome, however, apparently the new consensus is that these list of people by nationality/ethnicity are not appropriate for WP. Leuko 18:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm not sure I see such consensus anywhere. In fact, the List of German American AfD actually had more Keep votes than Delete votes, if I counted correctly. The closing admin's argument for deletion was loose association, and I highly disagree with the application of that argument on some of the lists (not all) that have been individually nominated for deletion. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral for now about the list of lists (see my comment just below) Keep This is not a list of African Americans. This is a list of lists. As such, I don't see a single thing in the closing administrator's comments from the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of German Americans discussion that applies here. In fact, much of the reasoning in that decision to delete would support this list. I created this list after "List of African Americans" was deleted. (Thank you, Leuko, for informing me of this discussion — I wish all nominating editors were that courteous.) Noroton 18:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC) ((edited for clarity to reflect addition of other lists Noroton 21:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)))[reply]
    • I'm trying to remember why I created this list instead of relying on Category:Lists of African Americans. Would it be better simply to have a category? I'm leaning that way now, but I'd like to know what others think. The usual justification for having a list instead of a category is that a list can give additional important information, but that's clearly not the case here. Perhaps simply being able to add African Americans to the Americans-by-ethnicity box, which is on the page, is the reason. If we are going to have lists of American ethnic groups, then African Americans should be represented simply to help readers navigate. Keep in mind that the List of Portugese Americans referred to by the nominator was not deleted, so it seems to me that we're going to have at least some ethnic-group lists around for some time to come. But my mind is open and I'd like to see what other people think. Noroton 19:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I would support the use of categories. And the keeping of some articles and deleting others of exactly the same type is a perfect example of why WP:AFD and WP:DRV are broken. Leuko 19:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Actually, I meant to nominate all the sub-lists as well, just haven't gotten around to it yet. Leuko 18:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletions. —Noroton 19:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the sub-lists As per WP:NOT#DIR (last item in that section), the sub lists are not at all too broad, and that's why WP:NOT specifically and pointedly makes them an exception by noting that it does NOT apply to List of Jewish American musicians. It is obvious that List of African-American writers would be useful to anyone interested in African American literature, and the same applies for anyone looking for more information or specific examples on the subjects of any of the other lists. These lists are better than categories because it is of obvious encyclopedic value to be able to know WHEN individual African American Republicans lived so that someone can explore those who were active during Reconstruction, or at the present time or in the times in between. The same could be said, essentially for each of the sub lists. Any sub-list here that does not provide more information than a category SHOULD provide that information, but that's an argument to improve the list, not to delete. Noroton 21:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC) ((add phrase for clarity Noroton 21:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)))[reply]
  • Keep These are very encyclopediac lists--SefringleTalk 22:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong, speedy keep - Important aid for researchers. We only include notable individuals in these lists and they are well sourced. As with previous ethnic group nominations, this nomination, apparently done along with dozens if not hundreds of others all in a single day, is disruptive, WP:POINT, and does not enhance our encyclopedia. Editor apparently presumes that all Americans should simply be "American," and their national origin should be ignored. This attempt to inject political POV into the Wiki should be eschewed in the strongest terms. Improve, don't delete. Badagnani 01:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Why are there no notices on the individual articles being proposed for deletion? This is poor form and against WP policy! Badagnani 02:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. While Wikipedia may not be a compendium of lists, these listings are extraordinarily helpful with research, as those searching for individuals of a particular ethnic background can easily find specific individuals and possibly contrast with others in the article. These listings for deletion are disruptive, in my opinion. They smack of nationalism and seem to presume that Americans have no (or shouldn't have) interest in the extreme diversity of the ethnic fabric of America. ExRat 02:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • And a category can't do this? To me, voting "Strong Keep" on some List of _x_ Americans, while deleting others smacks of nationalism. Leuko 03:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment: These lists often (or should) be referenced with birth and death dates, occupations, etc. Categories don't do that. ExRat 04:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - It has s already been pointed out that these lists are greatly superior in their content and usability (being on a single page, with individuals broken down by occupation, complete with footnotes and references), for ease of navigation and finding the information they are looking for, for our users. Thus, your argument holds no water, and your continued assertion that "categories are just as good as lists" in this context shows bad faith against the editors who have repeatedly pointed out that this is clearly not the case for our users who rely on having this information readily available, and not blanked by presumptuous characters such as yourself. Badagnani 04:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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