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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. - Mailer Diablo 12:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of victims of the Columbine High School massacre

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List of victims of the Columbine High School massacre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

WP:NOT a memorial DXRAW 01:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is a sub-article related to Columbine High School massacre because after some time, that article was seen as being too large, so several satellite articles were created to contain all the extra information, this being one of them, if anything merge this onto that one. -- SmthManly / ManlyTalk / ManlyContribs 01:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Which part of WP:BIO do you think they pass? DXRAW 02:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The shooting is notable, the individual victims are not. I'm not sure there is anything to merge, the article is just a list of the victims and that already exists in the article on the massacre. TJ Spyke 02:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment True, But that place does not have to be wikipedia.
See my comment below. --From Andoria with Love 22:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with this line of reasoning.
That's the general idea. Its pretty evident from their distribution that they are random and meaningless, and are very biased towards people in the US. Its not like the Haditha killings has a victims page. Indeed, there isn't a list of the names of the people killed in that, because it isn't encyclopedic! Frankly, these lists of victims ARE memorial pages, and thus inappropriate, because they weren't meaningful and they aren't remembered. Titanium Dragon 23:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The natural solution to that would be to improve our coverage of Haditha by adding a list of victims there, not to delete this article. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 01:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Moogy (talk) 22:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Normally I would suggest a list of victims (which I believe to be a vital part of an encylopaedic article like this) be merged into the main article for the incident. However, the whole reason this article is here is that the main article is too long. This page does not read like a memorial, includes all those involved including the murderers (which obviously would not be the case on a memorial), ad deliberately avoids language which might construe the page as a memorial to the massacre. It is simply a page presenting information pertinant to another page which is now simply too long.--Jackyd101 23:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. If you object to a specific aspect of this list, then improve it through editing. The list of victims in this case is a valuable addition to the parent article; indeed, we wouldn't HAVE a parent article if these people hadn't been killed in the first place. Having an article on the killings without the people who were killed would be like having an article on an election without the names of the candidates, or an article on the Olympics without the medal winners. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 01:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Great, so merge the names into the main article. Oh, wait. They already are in there, each and every one. How many you have actually read the Columbine article? The deaths of every victim are described in narrative detail, and there is a table as well. This article up for AfD is completely redundant.  RGTraynor  03:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break

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  1. The names of the dead and injured in the Columbine High School massacre are historically pertinent as part of the description of that significant historical event.
  2. The stuff in WP:NOT about memorials says, quote, "Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered." The victims en groupe are notable for having been the victims of the one of the biggest school shootings in U.S. history. That they were coincidentally fondly remembered by their friends/family does not detract from that. I do not argue that their level of notability warrants each and every one of them getting a separate article, but yes, they are "notable" enough as a group for their names to be known.
  3. The current AfD discussion seems to be part of an ideological campaign against any such lists of victims of heinous crimes, apparently begun with the List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre page and accompanying AfD discussion, by people who seem unable to distinguish between a memorialization and pertinent detail about a historically important event. I disagree with this ideological campaign and the faulty reasoning behind it.
  4. Many proponents of deletion also seem to be confused about different levels of "notability." They apparently believe that if a given person/place/thing/event/idea isn't notable enough to warrant a page all on its own, then it isn't deserving of mention at all, even if it's a pertinent detail in describing another person/place/thing/event/idea. By this faulty reasoning, no person/place/thing/event/idea on Wikipedia would be deserving of an article, since every article is made up of numerous "nonnotable" details that only become notable when joined with others to create a context. But it is context that makes something/someone notable or not, and these people, the victims of Harris and Klebold, are part of the context of what makes the Columbine shootings notable. As Hit bull, win steak wrote, "we wouldn't HAVE a parent article if these people hadn't been killed in the first place." I'm sure we would all be much happier if the main article didn't even exist, but the reason it does is because these people and their deaths and injuries were notable not only to their families and friends and the community of Littleton, Colorado, but also to the nation and to the world. If they weren't, then perhaps you should consider a speedy delete on the main article instead.
  5. I would vote Merge were in not for the fact that the main Columbine High School massacre article is already (at this writing) 70 kb in length, and when opened to edit displays the message "It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles." Per WP:SIZE, an article over 60 kb "Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time)" and one over 100 kb "Almost certainly should be divided up." Which is of course why this article was split out of the main one to being with. I'm not sure how much merging this article into the main article would affect the size, but it's already over the recommended limit for "probably should." Therefore I vote for Keep rather than Merge. --Yksin 05:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as per WP:LENGTH and WP:SS Joneboi 05:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (per a similar comment I made in the AfD/List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre discussion). Per WP:NOTE, "Notability guidelines determine whether a topic is sufficiently notable to be included as a separate article in Wikipedia. These guidelines do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by Wikipedia's guidelines on the reliability of sources and trivia" (emphases added). So this continual referencing of WP:NOTE is inappropriate as an argument for the deletion of this article because the individuals named here are not individually notable -- because the topic of this article is all the victims of the Columbine massacre as a group, not any one of them as an individual. Nobody is arguing here that each of them is notable enough to warrant their own article -- because in that case yes, WP:NOTE applies. --Yksin 06:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep This article was created on June 10, 2005 and is just a list of those who were killed, it's a list not a memorial, if on the other hand people were writing about how much they going to miss them or how they knew them and enjoyed the same music etc. I would agree, this on the other hand was a major news story and part of US History, further more I see the recent nom of this article for deletion as Violation of WP:POINT brought about by the nom of the List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007. ▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡Talk 06:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note that this same business is also going on in the AfD debate on the List of Charles Whitman's victims. Whitman was the clock tower sniper at U. of Texas. --Yksin 07:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This not a violation of WP:MEMORIAL because it's not a memorial, it's a listing a victims, people seem to be confused as what constitutes a memorial, if a perpetrator of a crime becomes so news worthy as to become encyclopedic rather it be Adolph Hitler, Osama bin Laden, or Charles Manson, common sense will tell you that these people regardless of how horrible they are that they are notable in history, on the other hand people seem to have a harder time understanding of the notability of a crime victim, JonBenét Ramsey wasn't notable before her death and neither was Elizabeth Smart before her kidnapping, after the fact their cases were covered worldwide as to reach notability and so were true with the Columbine victims, reporting them as such isn't the same a reporting another young boy or girl who is kidnapped or murdered, the listing of a famous victim is no more of a memorial as the listing of a famous killer. ▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡Talk 04:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So what say you about the wall of names at say, the USS Arizona Memorial? That is a memorial with the names of those that died in the battle. This is the same idea, abeit in digital form. --293.xx.xxx.xx 04:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is a paradox, the more numerous victims in an event the less known they are individually, the listing of six million Jews for example can not be done, and conversely the listing of the seven people of the space shuttle challenger can. As far as the USS Arizona Memorial, if at the time wikipedia had existed and people who were editors made their own memorial to the people who died on the USS Arizona, this would had been a violation, if editors at the time instead had just reported in an article about a memorial of the USS Arizona then it would not be a violation. Thus reporting on the memorial and making a memorial is two different things, listing the names of the victims and making a memorial to them are also two different things.▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡Talk 05:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't bring in 4chan memes into this arguement. --293.xx.xxx.xx 07:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete Weak Keep While it is the norm, there could easily be exceptions to the rule. Columbine was and still is a historic event, and perhaps the rule/norm could be bent to allow this list to be refined and kept. Jmlk17 02:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep list of victims != memorial... individual pages for victims == memorial... dont confuse the two. and delete the images off the page already (thats not acceptable fair use).  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 04:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Merge the names into the main article, but delete this article. It's a memorial, and isn't appropriate for wikipedia. Malamockq 05:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per precedent. I started an article on the Bath School disaster victims. Unanimous consent was to remove and this was done (and Bath was a far worse tragedy).[1] All you need here is name, age, occupation/student status and you have enough for a record. If there's more than that, the person should have their own article or one of the many memorial sites can more than provide whatever detail a searcher may be looking to obtain. Jtmichcock 17:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - and so there should also be a similar article for the Virginia Tech massacre and all other such incidents. Why would this not be considered notable enough to keep? --DevelopedMadness 19:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest Merge back to the main Columbine High School massacre. If all the information is already there, the task is easily achieved. There is no point in duplication. Peterkingiron 16:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep per Yksin. Bababoum 21:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I found it useful. -Trampikey(talk)(contribs) 23:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Speedy Keep. This is clearly an improper use of the claim of WP:MEMORIAL, which states: Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered.. This is not a matter of the sobbing friends and family of a departed loved one, posting the kid's myspace page on the Wikipedia. The tone of the Memorials guideline is to avoid making special pages for otherwise non-notable individuals just because they died prematurely or otherwise. Groups of people involved in a massacre are different. The Columbine massacre, like the Virginia Tech massacre and 9-11, was a National Tragedy, as students, families, and the general national population was effected in some way. While it is true that the dear students themselves, rest in peace, were not particularly notable before the event, the list of them becomes notable because of the global interest in the event. That said - I would strongly argue against creating special pages for each of the students themselves, unless there were other notability factors, like perhaps documented heroic acts performed before death, that sort of thing, and then it would have to be very well documented, not urban legend material. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 18:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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