Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of shopping malls in the United States

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus bordering on keep. The usefullness of the list as a navigation aid isn't really refuted, and "it's crufty" is vague. Whether it's discriminate or not hasn't resolved to a consensus. Cheers, WilyD 18:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of shopping malls in the United States[edit]

List of shopping malls in the United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Fails WP:NOT#INFO, This page is an indiscriminate collection of information ChrisLamb 01:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • This one I call for a Keep. This list is not as indiscriminate as one would let on (it's wall to wall malls), though its criteria for inclusion aren't well established. It's also incomplete (I can think of a few malls that can be added). It is my opinion that this does not fall in the constraints of being listcruft; or rather, it seems to fall into the constraints of WP:LIST. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dennisthe2 (talk • contribs)
  • I'm wondering if, at that point, we'd be splitting hairs, but that depends on what a lifestyle center or power center would be defined as. Outlet malls are fairly foregone for that, but...well, perhaps it's another one to put out in projectland. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 01:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Power centers we could probably leave out entirely, they're a dime a dozen (think super-sized strip malls). When I compiled a list of malls in the USA (which, per the struck-out comment below, took a long time), I found myself often questioning whether or not such-and-such was a mall by definition. Splitting this by state might not be a bad idea -- I've already made List of shopping malls in Michigan, which I can guarantee is complete. Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 01:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment- splitting into malls by state is a good idea it would be much easier on the reader then this <hyperbole>endless list</hyperbole> ChrisLamb 01:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete, even as a mall-geek myself. Yikes. Not only is this list far from complete (believe me -- I actually composed a list of every shopping mall, lifestyle center, and outlet mall in the U.S.; it took months), the list is also horribly unmanageable. I mean, is a lifestyle center a "mall"? Do strip malls count? Outlet malls? What about partially enclosed strip malls? Et cetera. Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 01:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd say delete for now - too many messages discussing what is the definition of a "mall" instead of, are most malls notable enough for inclusion? Tatonka79 01:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changing to Neutral for now, pending further discussion. I would be willing to help define this list, maybe even split it by region, and define criteria. Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 01:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Malls-related deletions. —Eddie 01:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep The traditional - if this is the right term - definition of a mall is an enclosed indoor environment lined by open storefronts, usually with at least two anchor stores. If that is enforced, then it might be worth keeping. No power centers, no strip malls (those are "shopping centers"), no lifestyle centers (unless enclosed per above). Acroterion (talk) 01:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree to some extent, at least for climates that can support it, one can have an open mall. I recall from living in Atlanta that Lenox Square Mall became noteworthy as one of the first malls when the originally open-courtyard shopping center gained a roof in the '60's, the enclosed air-conditioned environment being the critical factor. I'm not convinced that a lifestyle center must necessarily lack a roof: a visit to Buffalo might turn up one that's covered. We're straying from the discussion here. Weak Keep, provided criteria are stated and enforced. Acroterion (talk) 02:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're talking like The Block at Orange, or something like that? --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 02:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lenox Square gained a roof (essential in Georgia), The Block at Orange lost its roof (optional in California). So I now lean to delete on the grounds that such a list will lead to long discussions like this, only angry. Or maybe TPH can just upload his list, so it can finally have a home. Acroterion (talk) 02:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. It's yet another in a long list of...erm...long lists that serve no purpose whatsoever. While not quite listcruft, it still falls very firmly into the headlights of WP:NOT#INFO. Trusilver 02:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Perhaps to direct people to the articles we already have on, say, shopping malls in the United States? Just because its contents do not interest you does not mean that it has no purpose. Rebecca 06:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I have written a few proposed inclusion criteria at User:TenPoundHammer/List of shopping malls sandbox. Please check out this page and offer any suggestions. Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 03:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Dennisthe2. This list is different. Don't ask me to explain why. JJL 03:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but it should be a "list of lists of malls" - given that there is a lot of states in the US and there are >40000 malls in the country.Garrie 03:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep to me it's a useful list and not listcruft. --Caldorwards4 03:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Though I made fun of the author and the concept earlier this month (in a debate over an article I had drawn up) I've always liked the lists of malls, both existing and defunct. The impact of the shopping mall on the retail industry and on American society has been tremendous. Malls are, in effect, new cities located miles from the downtown business district of an existing town. TenPound has documented the phenomenon quite well. Mandsford 04:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Delete These lists are making wikipedia into the next yellow pages, however official policy is pretty vague in this area as inclusion in this list isnt very loose. I would think a policy clarification is in order to address the growing number of lists Corpx 04:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Malls by themselves are not notable - they're just buildings. Just because a building is used by the public to conduct business doesnt give it notability. This is a slippery slope that could lead to List of Chevy dealers in the US or List of Gas Stations in the US since an ordinary gas station has about as much notability as an ordinary mall. The number of malls from that list that dont have a page further illustrates that this is a list of not-notable things Corpx 07:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Delete(edit: Since some less notable malls have been removed from the list, I looked at the history and note that until Mar 3, 2007 [1] the introduction said only notable malls were on the list. I restored that qualifier, and now call for keeping it a a better defined list. as an indiscriminate list of information, since there are 46,000 of them, most of them non-notable, and all it would be is a directory, which Wikipedia is not. I would have no objection to a list of regional or superregional malls, as defined in Shopping mall per the International Council of Shopping Centers [2], since they are more notable, and there are under 1200 of them, rather than the thousands that would be in this list. There is nothing in this article to prevent adding the smallest neighborhood shopping center. Edison 05:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Um, if you don't disagree with the existence of this list (rather with its present content) then why are you voting delete instead of cleanup? Listing malls we will never have articles on is kind of pointless, as I noted below, but it's pretty stupid to shoot subject-specific index pages all the same. Rebecca 06:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • 'Comment (I like www.Televisionwithoutpity.com, where people are banned for starting comments with "Um.") The list still says formerly said in the introduction "This is a list of shopping malls in the United States of America. There are 46,990 shopping malls and centers in the U.S." with the clear implication that there is was no reason not to add even the least notable neighborhood strip mall. The discussion page talks about restricting it to notable malls. I would suggets restricting it to regional (over 400,000 sq ft of GLA with certain other features) or superregional (over 800,000 sq ft) as well as historic malls and any malls which clearly meet WP:N and WP:A. As is , it is It was clearly an "indiscriminate" list purely because it has had no stated basis for leaving off insignificant malls. Fix it, and I could vote to keep. Then it would be Now it is a different article. It is not just a matter of me having to edit it. We do not have to go in and fight a continuing battle with creators of an article to change it into something which is congruent with Wikipedia guidelines. And people keep creating stubs with no references and no basis (such as GLA for judging the significance of a mall. Edison 18:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. This is (or should be) an index of our articles on shopping malls in the United States. Many of these articles are either indisputedly notable, or have been the subject of an AfD and come out the other end intact. It should thus help the reader navigate between them. Listcruft? We're an encyclopedia - it's pretty silly to go and shoot the indexes. Rebecca 06:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of the items on the list have pages just because they're a mall, that's it. There is nothing more notable about them other than being a mall. Mall of America is notable because of its history/size/attractions. Eastwood Mall (Birmingham), the first item on that list, does not stand out in any way and I dont see any kind of notability attached to it. The Woodlands Mall is one closer to me geographically thats another example of an article about a mall that's not notable than any other mall. Corpx 07:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem is that it would seem that other people do not agree with you. Many, if not most all of the existing articles on this list have already been nominated for deletion, due to the efforts of a small clique of users, and have subsequently been kept. Thus, if the articles exist, and are going to continue to exist, what is the sense in deleting an index to them? Rebecca 07:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I dont think the number of people in agreement/disagreement should matter, but rather which side is accurately citing policy. Corpx 08:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What policy? "We must delete index pages because I think the articles on the list should have been deleted when others disagreed" is not policy. Rebecca 08:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:NOT dictates against lists of "loosely associated topics such as (but not limited to) quotations, aphorisms, or persons. Even though it doesnt state explicitly, I derive that it is also against loosely assosiated topics such as buildings. Malls are all just buildings, except they share a common purpose, which is a loose criteria criteria for inclusion. Corpx 09:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, nothing wrong with this list article. AfD is not cleanup, and "indiscriminate collection of information" is possibly the most annoying phrase ever used here. —Xezbeth 07:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The list is not useful, and not encyclopedic. And for the record, I'm originally from Iowa, and by checking the malls listed in Iowa, it's missing quite a few, most notably the Merle Haye Mall, which was named after the first Iowan who died in WW2, the Coral Ridge Mall, and the Cross Roads mall, just to name a few off the top of my head. --sumnjim talk with me·changes 12:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Um, what? It is a list of notable shopping malls. Thus it isn't missing the malls you mention, it is useful, and it is encyclopedia, seeing as it's acting as an index to the articles we already have. Rebecca 14:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's try this again. 1) The article says List of shopping malls in the United States. It does not say List of notable shopping malls in the United States. 2) Please tell me why The Omni Centre (dead mall) is listed under Iowa, is a dead mall (ie: no longer exists), and why the biggest mall in Iowa (Merle Haye Mall), which, as I said, is named after the first Iowan killed in WW2, is not on the list. Please please please tell me how a crappy podunk mall in Council Bluffs which doesn't even exist is notable and why the Merle Haye Mall is not? Where the heck is the inclusion criteria for these malls? This is a bunch of original crap, and it's indiscriminate. Delete this garbage. --sumnjim talk with me·changes 15:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Um, then the appropriate step is to cleanup the article. Remove the non-notable malls, make it explicitly clear that this is for notable malls. Killing the index for the sake of killing the index makes no sense whatsoever. Rebecca 15:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You created the article, you want it kept....YOU fix it. Since I feel it should be deleted, I am not going to waste my time spending hours upon hours of fixing your mess, because you just through a bunch of random malls into the lists. (ie: indiscriminate). --sumnjim talk with me·changes 15:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional comment: You never answered my question why a podunk, closed down mall is on the list (ie: notable in your opinion), but not the biggest, most notable mall in Iowa? Secondly, if these malls are so notable, how come I see so many red links? --sumnjim talk with me·changes 15:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't create the article. I didn't throw a bunch of random malls in the list. I didn't add the red links, and I'm not saying that every mall on this list is necessarily notable. I'm saying that this list should act as every other list of its nature does; act as an index to our articles on notable malls in the United States. All these notability issues are irrelevant; if the mall is not notable, it shouldn't be on this list. Rebecca 15:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here's what you should do...remove all the red linked malls, change the opening sentence to somehow introduce what the inclusion criteria is. ie: What made this mall get on the list. If you have specific, definied criteria for inclusion, then it wouldn't be indiscriminate. I would also change the name of it to List of notable malls in the United States (or better yet, use TenPoundHammer's proposed idea). FYI the National Mall isn't even on the list. True, it's in D.C, and there isn't a list for malls in DC, however the master list is for the whole United States. How could this mall not be on the list either? I don't even know if this list can be manageable...it's almost in disrepair. --sumnjim talk with me·changes 16:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Someone should do this, yes. We're discussing here, however, the question of whether the article should remain on Wikipedia. You've outlaid a fairly simple process by which the issues with this article could be cleaned up. There is no great urgency that this be done right now. Rebecca 16:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the category for inclusion has been just whether a building is or was a mall. Due to how common malls are these days, I would argue that this inclusion criteria is very loose. We could see a List of Police Stations next or List of Flea Markets next. Corpx 16:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is simply nonsense - we have no (or very few) articles on police stations or flea markets. We do, however, have quite a sizable number of articles on shopping malls in the United States. There is absolutely no reason why we should hot have an index pointing to those articles. Rebecca 16:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the way the mall articles are written (they just describe the mall/stores in it), one could easily create articles about police stations and then make a list of them. Malls are not inherently notable, and this is a list about them. With this precedent, any inherently non-notable building could have an article and a list which groups them. Corpx 16:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • We already have many articles on shopping malls. This will not change. This article simply provides a useful index to the articles we do have. It says nothing about whether we should or should not have any more than the ones we already do. Rebecca 17:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Question - are you attempting to create a specific set of criteria for all malls, to be adopted as policy/guideline? Arkyan &#149; (talk) 17:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm actually trying to establish criteria for whether a mall should be on this very list. (Note: This is NOT a proposed guideline for individual mall articles!) Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 17:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We went through the battle a few months ago of trying to create a guideline for notability of malls, WP:MALL, but too many people on Wikipedia feel it is instruction creep to add new guidelines and it is presently labelled "rejected" (or sometimes "essay"). Anyone who wants to create a new one is welcome to start afresh or to incorporate any good parts from the old one. Not everything called a mall is notable enough to have an article or even to be in a list. We do not need a list which includes grubby little neighborhood strip mall, power centers, or decrepit malls which only serve a small town, any more than Wikipedia should have a List of mailboxes or a List of gas stations. Edison 18:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, okie. Well, it looks fairly good as a start. Perhaps a little more work in terms of rigorous definitions for each category of mall, but if something like this is applied to the list I may be persuaded to alter my recommendation. Better still, perhaps the list should be broken up into sub-lists .. as stated previously .. this list has the potential to become enormous. Arkyan &#149; (talk) 18:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep categorization and inclusion has been clearly specified and notability has been established. By definition, all of the articles with links are notable shopping malls. Alansohn 18:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Because I couldn't stand it any longer, I went through every state on the list and removed ANY AND ALL red links, along with malls that did not have any links. It would take too much time to fact check every link to see what should be kept/removed myself, so to keep it short I just removed all the extra stuff. If there is a mall that isn't on the list and is notable/has an article, feel free to add it. That at least makes it somewhat more managable. It still needs a rewrite that determines inclusion in the list. I don't know if it will survive AfD but it's at least in better shape than what it was. --sumnjim talk with me·changes 18:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • As it stands now, wouldnt a category be better suited since only the ones with article are listed? Have a [[:Category:Malls in <State>]] category and a Category:Malls in the United States that encompasses all the states? Corpx 18:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As the article itself says, "There are 46,990 shopping malls and centers in the U.S." That's too long for a list. As noted above, there's already a category; let's not be redundant. There are a few advantages to selecting a category as the way to move forward with this information:
    Avoids redlinked entries.
    Easier to manage--if you're looking at a mall article, you can tell right away if it's in the category.
    If we ever support automatic intersecting categories, it would be easy to find all malls in a specific state or founded in a particular year.

Matchups 19:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Look at the actual list, and not the title. This is not an indiscriminate list, and it contain information which would be very hard or impossible to do in a category, matching the malls with the towns--this is more important than in some other instances, because the two names are rarely the same & almost all of them are in suburbs. If it looks to long, the sections can be made collapsable. NOT PAPER, and we should take full advantage of that. DGG 03:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The fact that it is not an indiscriminate list is why it should be deleted. If these malls are notable then they are in Category:Shopping malls in the United States. In fact the introduction for this list implies that only the articles included in this list are notable and the the other articles in Category:Shopping malls in the United States are not notable. That is totally wrong. If there is an article then it is notable. Inclusion in this list does not make the mall notable. Delete this article and keep the category. Vegaswikian 05:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but clean up. I agree that guidelines are needed, but with guidelines this could be cleaned up to become a good list. If one was forced to use categories, it would be very hard to find any information, and many of the categories, like this list, are incomplete. Metallic95 User Page | Talk 15:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • this is keeps. this shows historically shopping malls in the us — Preceding unsigned comment added by 414ronald (talk • contribs)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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