Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of shopping malls in Egypt

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. T. Canens (talk) 06:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of shopping malls in Egypt[edit]

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List of shopping malls in Egypt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Doesn't meet WP:LISTN or WP:GNG; I don't think it is useful either, and is presumably incomplete. This has been in CAT:NN for over 11 years; hopefully we can now get it resolved one way or the other. Boleyn (talk) 10:30, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Shopping malls-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 10:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 10:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Egypt-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 10:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep We have lists of shopping malls for other countries so why wouldn't we include Egypt too? This nomination is not useful because no thought has gone into it. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:46, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Andrew Davidson, thought has gone into it. I think on the whole lists should be evaluated individually - does this one meet WP:LISTN or WP:GNG? I can't see that it does. List articles are really difficult to judge (hence them sitting in CAT:NN for so long) but hopefully this one would give me a clearer idea of the issues and the consensus before I looked at any other lists of shopping malls in x. Something like shopping malls may also be considered important, notable and well-written about in some countries - and not at all in others, so it is worth considering them individually imo. I don't mind anyone putting forward a different case though, that's one of the good things about AfD. Boleyn (talk) 12:08, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Three notable entries does not make a list. We might as well just create a new article called List of shopping malls in Africa and merge all shopping malls from every African country into one list. Ajf773 (talk) 20:26, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
user:Andrew Davidson, you're being very aggressive today. I assume Ajf was starting with the article in front of them, rather than being biased. I'm pretty sure they don't want to 'trash the entire continent of Africa'. Boleyn (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm being defensive; protecting our content from disruption. The nominator does not appear to have engaged with the topic or said one word about the situation in Egypt. Per WP:BEFORE, "if the main concern is notability the minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search". Has the nominator made these searches? Why have they not found sources like Changing Consumer Cultures of Modern Egypt or Emerging Egypt which indicate that the topic passes WP:LISTN. The nominator needs to explain why they are being so aggressive towards a good faith topic without doing due diligence. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:10, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your intention may be to come across as defensive, and that is needed on Wikipedia - I always appreciate people putting forward different opinions - preferably without attacking others - and it is always helpful to have people put forward a keep argument. I tend to trust in the consensus the AfD comes to and don't mind if it differs from my assessment. Of course there are books which mention that shopping malls exist in Egypt, and that it is a very recent development. I'm not getting the same results as you from the first link you posted - it's not showing fully for me except about malls in Dubai - but the second one confirms existence of 26 (at the time of writing) shopping malls in Greater Cairo. Does that mean it meets WP:LISTN, or do the other sources which confirm there are malls in Egypt? I don't agree, but I respect your opinion and appreciate you looking at the article and adding your own opinion here. Boleyn (talk) 21:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The book Changing Consumer Cultures of Modern Egypt is a substantial academic work and you don't get to read it for free. Its title and description indicate that it is mainly about Egypt and Cairo in particular. References to other places such as Dubai are for purposes of comparison. The work covers shopping malls and elsewhere we read that "Chapter Six provides an extended look at one key institution of consumer culture, the shopping mall. Abaza explores in particular the role of the shopping mall in reshaping urban space. When “traditional” quarters of the city are redefined as slums, this categorization allows them to be “cleared” to make way for gigantic, ultramodern mega-malls. Malls are ranked by the classes of customers they cater to, and mechanisms are sometimes in place to ensure the wrong people do not enter the “best” malls." So, from this evidence, it is apparent that the topic passes WP:LISTN. How did I find this? By taking the trouble to look. But doing this is the responsibilty of the nominator and so failure to do so is negligent and disruptive. I gather that Boleyn is trying to work through a backlog of over 60,000 articles which have been tagged by other editors who couldn't be bothered to look for sources either. If they continue to nominate so many articles for deletion without doing due diligence then it won't go well.
If feelings are hurt then this is an undesirable consequence of this process. Please consider the feelings of the editor who started this page. He decribes himself on his user page, "Hi, my name is Ahmed(born February 15, 1983). I live in Cairo, Egypt. A graduate of Ain Shams University, with a major in Computer Engineering. I read about almost everything, politics, history, military, computers and sports. I travelled to other countries as well. However, I am mainly interested in contributing in Egyptian related topics. I'm still new to Wikipedia, and I hope to be a good contributor to this ambitious project." This person seems to be a good faith editor but his work is being attacked. See WP:BITE which explains that "nothing scares potentially valuable contributors away faster than hostility". WP:IMPERFECT explains that "Even poor articles, if they can be improved, are welcome." These are our policies.
Andrew🐉(talk) 23:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Zambia apparently had no qualifying articles (no category exists either). I do think merging of these lists is probably the best outcome here. postdlf (talk) 20:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Per nom. That being said, Andrew needs to do some serious work on his persistent hostility and lack of good faith, never mind the frankly bizarre suggestions that the mere nomination of an article for deletion violates WP:BITE, or that Wikipedia's civility policies are suspended as long as one claims to be "defending" it. Ravenswing 14:40, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The nominator still hasn't explained why we should pick on this particular country. Ravenswing hails from Massachusetts, right? Consider List of shopping malls in Massachusetts. Notice that that has no sources. Notice that none of the equivalent lists for the other US states have no sources either. So why are we making a special example of Egypt when we seem to have similar lists for every other part of the world. Per nom doesn't cut it when the nomination is so flawed. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • List of shopping malls in Massachusetts redirects to List of shopping malls in the United States, and even then all the links in the list are bluelinked, so no issues with that. The point of these lists is for navigation, not to be used as a directory of every single mall known. Ajf773 (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, you probably should have looked at the List of shopping malls in Massachusetts article first. Oops. That being said, you haven't advanced a reason why lists pertaining to Egypt should be exempt from scrutiny. Ravenswing 02:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ravenswing, I guarantee that if delete voters were making veiled insinuations that the other side were motivated by racism, they'd be facing a pitchfork mob at ANI. It just goes to show that you can say and do what you like provided you preface everything with the word "keep". Reyk YO! 14:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
comment see wp:whatabout and wp:otherstuffexists. We are assessing this article, there are of course hundreds of thousands are other poor ones, or ones of doubtful notability. Boleyn (talk) 15:15, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:OSE supports my position, not Boleyn's because it states that "These "other stuff exists" arguments can be valid ... these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes." There doesn't seem to be any significant structural difference between these many lists of shopping malls and so it makes no sense to treat them differently. The nomination here is arbitrary and inconsistent because it is not based upon consideration of the general topic; it's just a drive-by attempt to deal with a clean-up tag, right? Trying to clean up topics in such a random, date-based way is not efficient because you get no consistency or economies of scale. The correct way to address such topics is as a group and then it can be done consistently by adopting a common approach. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:24, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... whereupon you'd just argue that a bundled nomination didn't give people the chance to evaluate the articles on their own merits. Sorry, no reason to play that game, when your AfD votes run almost 50:1 for Keep/Merge over Delete. Ravenswing 02:54, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge. LISTN is not relevant here (and ironically if it were, satisfying it could lead to a conclusion no one wants). This is because 1) we use both lists and categories to index articles by what they are (and we do indeed have articles on shopping malls in Egypt), and 2) grouping things by the country where they are is the most obvious and uncontroversial way to do that. So we don't need a special showing that "shopping malls in Egypt" is a notable topic to justify it as an appropriate basis for listing or categorizing shopping malls in Egypt. Ajf773 comes closest above to what is then the only valid question here: whether there are enough notable entries to merit a standalone index of articles per WP:LISTPURP complementary to Category:Shopping malls in Egypt per WP:CLN. There are five bluelinks on the list (and in the category), which some may consider borderline. Without sources for the redlinks, we cannot see whether any more merit articles. If five is not enough, the solution would not be to delete this, however, but instead to merge/redirect to a list of broader scope per WP:ATD. Outright deletion is not supported by policy or relevant guidelines here. postdlf (talk) 20:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge The 'List of shopping malls in Africa' template on the bottom of the article shows only six country articles (plus one, Angola, that has no actual content), and when you check them, they're mostly unlinked or redlinked bare listings. That said, together they do link to 50+ actual articles in total. My proposal is to merge all those into a single Africa page, similar to the US equivalent article referenced above, also removing the un-/redlinked chaff in the process. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 06:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I see Africa as equivalent to North America rather than the USA which I see as equivalent to Egypt (as a country) and I see this then topic as notable. If there were provincial pages these could be merged but country seems like a more reasonable top level rule. Continental lists seem... quite silly, I don't think any reasonable source would describe them as such - from Capetown to Cairo is an awfully long way (would this be applied evenly to other continents Asia? Or Europe? Or Oceania (should everything in New Zealand be listed with Australian stuff). PainProf (talk) 05:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I take your point about countries vs. continents, but I also think numbers play a role here, in that there are probably more shopping malls in the USA than in the entire Africa put together; kind of like how there could be one list for Canadian inductees to the Hockey Hall of Fame, and another, much smaller one, for the ROW. :) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 06:26, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 11:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete- as it's just a bare list of names, and very few are bluelinked, it's hard to see a navigational purpose for this. I don't see that it has any real purpose actually. I suppose we could create a List of shopping malls in Africa and redirect this article there. That would be more useful. Whether you want to call that a merge or a redirect is something of a moot point. Reyk YO! 14:38, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The nom says it's not useful and incomplete, and complains that it's very old. These are all meaningless arguments, and I encourage Boleyn to stick to policy and guideline based rationales. As Andrew🐉 points out, we have well developed lists like this for other countries. Unless one believes that shopping malls in Egypt are fundamentally less notable than malls elsewhere, or that all such lists should be deleted, then the only argument remaining is that this page needs cleanup. If you do want to delete them all, aim for the heart and start with something like List of shopping malls in Minnesota. pburka (talk) 22:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:CLN. AfD is not for cleanup. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:21, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Despite copious argumentation above, there is still a glaring lack of compliance with WP:LISTN. Despite passing mentions and vague handwaves, there is no evidence that there is any significant coverage of the list as a group and NOTCLEANUP and ATD can't bridge that gap. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:31, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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