Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of presidents of the Philippines by province

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. MBisanz talk 04:22, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List of presidents of the Philippines by province[edit]

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List of presidents of the Philippines by province (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Another indiscriminate (WP:INDISCRIMINATE) collection of trivia (definitely WP:Listcruft, failing WP:LISTN, verifiability, and WP:NOSTATS. Not a single source present in the list (all are footnotes). The topic is not notable, and thus should be deleted. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 09:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 09:57, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 09:57, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 09:57, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Filipinos do identify by province, especially non-Tagalogs. Dismissing this as trivia or even as "not notable" (LOL) misses out this important fact. See also quite similar discussion on "Britishness#Scotland" and Imperial Manila. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:18, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Howard the Duck – Yeah, but that topic would definitely be much better covered in an article like Regionalism in the Philippines (see Regionalism in Ukraine, Somogy County). Moreover, even is it plays a role in Philippines politics, that doesn't mean that we can possibly start classifying political position-holders based on their province, and create lists. Every topic can be classified on various parameters like age, longevity, religion, number of children, province, even whether they have beard or not. But, for creating a list such as this, we'll need to demonstrate notability that presidents of the Philippines classified by geographical province is of interest to scholars and reliable sources. Currently no such notability has been established, thus the topic does remain non-notable. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • We're not talking about "age, longevity, religion, number of children". If you've noticed, I've let those slip by because Filipinos don't usually associate their politicians by "age, longevity, religion, number of children", or even schools they went to... but they certainly do so for provinces, as a proxy for ethnicity. Solid North exists, Presidential tickets were previously balanced for geographical considerations (and the practice is being revived for the 2022 election). Rodrigo Duterte is commonly described as the first president from Mindanao; so much so that he won the Mindanao provinces by a landslide. Not every demographic is equal, and in the Philippine experience, people care enough to know which province a politician came from. This is real and is not made up. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yeah, not every demographic is equal, and I agree that regionalism does play an important role in Politics of the Philippines. It is indeed real and not made up, but ... our sourcing policy believes in verifiability, not truth. I tried finding sources, but couldn't find except few with passing mentions. If Filipinos particularly associate each of their presidents by certain demographics such as province, then there should be reliable sources backing up this claim. In U.S., they do, and we have sources discuss this. ([1], [2]) If not, then it does not belong the the encyclopedia. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 15:05, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • There's this detailed article on which presidential candidate won where in which 2016.
          • Certainly verifiable.
          • Certainly not "passing mentions".
          • It's a good idea to withdraw the nomination now. I've been here in Wikipedia for like decades now to know every WP:xxx shortcut used in deletion discussions. This nom is bound to go nowhere. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:56, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies if I keep persisting this point, but the source you cite here is a report discussing whether "candidates for president and vice president [lead] in the polls in cities and provinces where they trace their roots", asserting the fact that province does play an important role in politics of Philippines, not necessarily in list of presidents. I am always open to reconsider my nominations and declarations of Keep/Delete. If you or anyone else can improve the article, backing it up with sources demonstrating notability, I'll be happy to withdraw this nomination, but until then, let this have its complete run. Lets agree to disagree! I do respect your experience here, and appreciate your work on Philippines related articles. Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:38, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • List of vice presidents of the Philippines is a list of vice presidents of the Philippines in chronological order of when they took office. Believe it or not, there's no definitive list of vice presidents, or even when some vice presidents took and left office, or even when specific "eras" started and ended. Would you send that to AFD? LOL of course not. If there's no such list, then that's even worse than as what you are saying here that "a list of home provinces of the presidents of the Philippines, which are readily available and actually based on reality, is not notable."
  • I know you want to delete similar lists such as this, but you chose the wrong list to send to AFD. WP:BEFORE (sorry for citing actual policy!) was sadly not made. Instead of improving other articles, such as those in the upcoming election, I'd have to fight this well intentioned, but in the end silly, AFD. I'd appreciate it so much if you can be so kind to withdraw the nom so that we can do other stuff here. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:24, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge city/province/birth/death columns into List of presidents of the Philippines, convert that to a sortable list, and redirect Not a common list among other nations, and I definitely don't understand the 'province is a stand-in for race' argument; I'd understand it more if it was 'province is a stand in for rural/suburban/urban' instead. There's only one province with multiple presidents and two with province of residence, and the article is mostly a lot of filler which is better in a main list-of article than a diversionary article where it's lost among maps and other DYK minutia. And a note to the above; stop pressuring the nominator to withdraw the nomination. We have seven days for a discussion for a reason. Nate • (chatter) 23:31, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not even a rural-urban divide; a rural resident in Batac, Ilocos Norte (Marcos' hometown) will feel different than a rural resident from Talibon, Bohol (Garcia's hometown); they wouldn't probably understand each other (LOL). We don't add columns hometowns/provinces/states on lists of presidents and vice presidents elsewhere, and there's no reason to break prior consensus and add one here (and curiously, not on other lists). Again, this AFD is a complete waste of time, where people could have been doing other work, instead of replying to comments such as "add another column to the table, but only on this list and not on other lists, which have mostly clearly defined columns such name, term of office, party and portrait, and probably elections." Howard the Duck (talk) 20:46, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: This article follows the general format of the List of presidents of the United States by home state article. As the AFD for that article resulted in a speedy keep in November 2020, I don't see why this counterpart article should be deleted.SilentGanda (talk) 14:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Meets WP:NLIST per Howard's and SilentGanda's arguments. SBKSPP (talk) 06:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have provided numerous examples in response to SilentGanda's vote. This list may meet WP:NLIST, but the same policy states that "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources". The current citations added by SilentGanda just verify the province, and accuracy of the list was never questioned. The same sources can be used to create various other lists, but all won't be notable. Upto you, but I still don't see citation providing "notability" than "verifiability". – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 06:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Who cares what you think? It definitely meets WP:NLIST and WP:V and Howard's argument is spot on. SBKSPP (talk) 00:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ASTIG😎 (ICE T • ICE CUBE) 16:00, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ASTIG😎 (ICE T • ICE CUBE) 16:15, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Clearly passes WP:NLISTJuggyevil (talk) 14:01, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Juggyevil – Quoting the policy which you cite: One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources .... Throughout this entire discussion or in the list-article, I don't see any source discussing the topic to be notable. So I don't understand how it clearly passes WP:NLIST. The sources in the article are merely verifying the entries, which doesn't makes the list notable. However, I'll appreciate if you can provide with reliable sources which discuss "List of presidents of the Philippines" on basis of their province. Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 14:11, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep passes WP:NLIST and the information may not fit neatly into to main List of presidents of the Philippines page. --Enos733 (talk) 17:40, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Enos733 – Well, I don't want to persist the point I discussed in the above response, but WP:NLIST states that: there is no present consensus for how to assess the notability of more complex and cross-categorization lists (such as "Lists of X of Y"). I would be interested to know how this passes NLIST. Do you have any sources which discuss "List of presidents of the Philippines" based on their province? Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 17:54, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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