Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of medieval great powers (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. czar 02:53, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

List of medieval great powers[edit]

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The concept of the "medieval great power" barely exists and it certainly is not used in scholarship (or anywhere) to describe just about any of the states listed on this page. ~~The page cannot be rescued because sources do not exist.~~ Srnec (talk) 02:09, 15 August 2019 (UTC) I suppose the page could be rescued, but it would be much reduced. Also, unlike the modern great powers, there is no consensus concerning what were "great powers" in the Middle Ages. Srnec (talk) 13:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because it suffers from the same problem. A bare list of states that some modern scholar has labelled a "great power" is possible, but seems useless to me. Unlike the medieval page, this one might be salvageable.

Srnec (talk) 02:15, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To save anyone else from following the winding path I just took, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of medieval great powers was just created by the nominator as a redirect to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Historical powers. I appreciate that you've connected this to a previous AfD that ended with a keep result, but this is very confusing. Should you come across a similar situation in the future, probably better to just link the previous discussion in the nomination statement. --BDD (talk) 03:06, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. MarginalCost (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. MarginalCost (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. MarginalCost (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

keep In fact scholars for decades have used the term: 1) 1972 in "In Eastern Europe peace periods were created in Hungary, Bohemia and Poland because of the collapse of medieval great powers" [Peace Research Vol. 4, No. 3 (March 1972), pp. 17-20] (2) The SAGE Encyclopedia of War (2016) p 1185 "Military power secured the vital interests of ancient and medieval great powers. Some early states practiced..." (3) Civilizations, Empires, and Wars (1992) p 113 "Medieval Great Powers included China throughout, Persia...." [gives a list] (4) Toynbee (1965) "In other words, there was no relation between medieval “nations and medieval “Great Powers'," (5) Great Powers and Geopolitical Change (2008) - Page 231 has a list of medieval great powers. Rjensen (talk) 03:40, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such list on p. 231. Or p. 213. Do you have the right book? Srnec (talk) 13:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It is easy to find substantial sources which talk in these terms: Great Powers and Geopolitical Change uses the Republic of Venice as a case study and they appear in the medieval list; while Balance: The Economics of Great Powers from Ancient Rome to Modern America starts with Ancient Rome – an archetypal great power. Andrew D. (talk) 09:47, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In light of the above comments, I encourage editors to do their own Google Book and Scholar searches and decide for themselves if my use of "barely" was unjustified. Srnec (talk) 13:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep both. I notice that the AFD for List of ancient great powers links to this page. Anyway, as I said in the previous AFD for this: All of these are referred to by historians as great powers. That is a proper term for it. Webster dictionary even has a definition for great power [1], saying its the same as "superpowers", that term used today. Listing what countries were considered great powers in their day, all having a significant effect on history, is very encyclopedic. Seriously, just click on the link to Great power and read the clear definition used. Dream Focus 17:14, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It's a very common term in international relations. Great power and superpower are in no way the same thing; they're generally tied to unipolar/bipolar/multipolar systems. For example, in WW1 you had a bunch of great powers fighting. Cold war, two superpowers (three, counting GB before the Suez Crisis). Now, one superpower. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:25, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Rjensen's argument and citations. Dimadick (talk) 10:05, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- If this were a category, I would have to object that its scope was a subjective matter, but I do not see that as a major problem with a list article, which is all this is. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:08, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.