Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of character counterparts in the DC multiverse

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. (ESkog)^(Talk) 16:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of character counterparts in the DC multiverse

Original Reseach with no references, simply a page of links to entries. Sets a bad precedent if allowed to continue without at least some WP:V, IMHO. Netkinetic (t/c/@) 05:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the assessment given above. It is a comparison chart that happens to include links to other entries (provided as a convenience for those wishing to know more about the specific characters). References are being added at the present time to further refine the entry and bring it more clearly in-line with Wikipedia's standards. Thanks. Starmiter 14:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. References seem to have been added, if necessary; though perhaps the best place for annotations here would be the characters' articles in chief. This is an indexing/crossreferencing page. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you looked into the references to verify they are valid for the content on the page? If not then I revert back to the initial premise for this submission, respectfully. Netkinetic(t/c/@) 05:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - They are; I am generally familiar with the relevant comic book history. - Smerdis of Tlön 15:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - If I may ask, then, which articles reference the below mentioned Earth-X characters as counterparts? Of those listed, only a handful can be confirmed, and I'm unsure as to the relevance of this as an "indexing/crossreferencing page". Can you provide some further criteria on why this list is justified from actual teritary sources, rather than primary or secondary? Comic book issues are primary sources, and do not fall into the criteria of WP:V nor WP:RS, respectfully.Netkinetic (t/c/@) 22:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete original research. Those references do not all establish these characters as counterparts. None of those Earth-S or Earth-X characters are the same people. For example, Uncle Sam is not Clark Kent, he's not a strange visit from another planet, he does not have the same powers. Not. The. Same. Yeah, the Earth-X characters made their DC debut in Justice League of America #107. Not one word established them as alternate versions of the Earth-1 or Earth-2 people. The same goes for #136 and the Earth-S characters. Too much of this is just stuff some Wikipedia contributor made up based on his/her personal inferences. The material that's not original research is covered in the respective characters' articles and the multiverse article. Doczilla 09:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

" *Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions. -- Pax:Vobiscum 08:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)"[reply]

(parts reprinted from my talk page for additional info purposes on the debate here - more info will follow):

For Earth-X:

Uncle Sam serves the Superman purpose as the single-most powerful character for that world
Firebrand serves the Batman purpose as the rich playboy who fights crime
Miss America serves the WW purpose as a red, white, & blue-clad heroine (and DC themselves initially used her in WW's place in the JSA after Crisis on Infinite Earths since the Golden Age version of WW was wiped from continuity, so DC saw her as a counterpart)
Quicksilver serves the Flash purpose as a super-speedster
Red Torpedo serves the Aquaman purpose as an undersea-based hero with ties to an underwater civilization (which is, per The All-Star Companion Volume 2, page 95, the under-sea civilization Merrezonia)
Alias the Spider serves the Green Arrow purpose as a heroic archer
Black Condor serves the Hawkman purpose as a flying man with a bird-based name
Dollman serves the Atom purpose (particularly the Earth-One version) as a shorter-than-normal hero
Phantom Lady serves the Black Canary purpose as a fighting female with a suggestive outfit (and later, with a gimmick - 'black-light ray' vs. 'canary cry')
The Jester serves the Vigilante purpose as a law enforcement or court official who takes it upon himself to additionally fight crime in a costumed identity

It should be noted that the Earth-X characters were originally owned and published by Quality Comics, a direct competitor to DC/National Comics, and during the Golden Age when both companies were active, character-copying was not just common but the rule, however, function-copying was tougher to prove in court than direct concept-copying, so that explains why the world-by-world comparisons here (long after the time DC bought the rights to the Quality characters after Quality went out of business) may not seem intuitive at first glance (and if a character is a copy, to any extent, that makes the character a counterpart automatically; and according to Merriam-Webster, counterpart...3b : one having the same function or characteristics as another).

In the case of Earth-S, Captain Marvel was considered such a copy (i.e., counterpart) to Superman, that DC/National sued Fawcett Comics for copyright infringement (initially losing) - the similarities were ultimately shown that both characters were strong, could fly, ultra-durable, had alter-egos employed in the news business, and both had evil bald scientists as their chief enemy (there are also sources that have suggested that Captain Marvel, Jr., with his blue outfit & red cape, is actually Fawcett's slam at Superman to show how Cap, physically bigger than Jr., had much greater sales at the time). And the copying came full circle when DC finally developed Supergirl, clearly a counterpart to Mary Marvel.

To be a counterpart, it does not mean that the heroic identity has to be the same, nor does it mean the secret identity has to be the same. The complaint that Uncle Sam isn't Clark Kent is invalid because (picking just one example), Ray Palmer isn't the secret identity of the Earth-Two Atom (Al Pratt is), they don't have the same powers, and yet they're counterparts. In Infinite Crisis, it's stated that Breach would've been the Earth-8 Captain Atom if the Multiverse had still existed, and neither the superhero name nor the secret identity name are the same between those two, and yet DC themselves considers them counterparts when there isn't even a Multiverse anymore (for now - changes are underway). Further, if we review Superman's early days and compare him to Uncle Sam, it seems that they're more similar than given credit here. Superman's initial powers: Superhuman strength, able to leap great distances, and being very durable (no flying yet, no vision powers yet, no hearing powers yet, no 'super-breath' yet, etc.). Uncle Sam's powers: Superhuman strength, able to leap great distances, limited pre-cognitive abilities (a difference which kept Quality from getting sued). The key for the comparisons is to remember what they were like at the time of creation. As far as the grid is concerned, I had meant to reference JLA issue 108 (vol. 1) instead of 107 (I have since corrected this), where Uncle Sam & the Earth-Two Superman went head-to-head, which would show that they are similar enough to survive each other in line with the above rationale.

Continuing with Earth-S, clearly Bulletman & Bulletgirl are counterparts to Hawkman & Hawkgirl (both sets had special costume devices to allow them to fly - 'Gravity Regulator Helmet' vs. 'Belt of Nth Metal'), Mr. Scarlet & Pinky the Whiz Kid are clearly Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder, Golden Arrow was the inspiration for Green Arrow (another case of DC/National doing the copying for a change), and so on. In regards to the complaint that the references don't show the comparisons, in the Earth-S grid, the reference is for issue 136 of JLA (vol. 1) - the story was in issues 135-137, but 136 shows the counterparts teamed together in smaller group missions (Earth-Two's Batman & Robin teamed w/ Mr. Scarlet & Pinky, and Earth-One's Hawks are teamed with the Bullets) - granted, there's no point where it specifically states "so-and-so is the direct Earth-S counterpart to so-and-so," but it shouldn't have to. Some things are just understood (and to add even more to the mix, one of the villains that fight Batman, Robin, Mr. Scarlet, & Pinky is The Weeper from Earth-S - a crying version of The Joker - who happens to be teamed-up with the Earth-Two Joker in this chapter; clearly, there is a message here).

It's not in the 'References' section yet, but there is more info on the subject matter in a variety of issues of Alter-Ego over the last several years from TwoMorrows Publishing - I've just not had the opportunity to review specific issues/articles as they are currently in storage and difficult for me to access presently (and, frankly, I never thought I'd have to fight tooth & nail over what I thought was a fairly innocuous page here), and I expect to be able to add more in the future. Thanks. Starmiter 00:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply. All you've done with this analysis is demonstrate what I'm saying: Those correlations are original research full of your opinion. Saying one character is "clearly" based on another exerts opinion. You have acknowledged the lack of sources. This is original research. Doczilla 06:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I agree with Net and Doc, this is OR, almost top to bottom. For it to be valid in almost any way, shape, or for, it's the analogue linkages that need to have verifiable, reliable sources. Even if those do exist, most of the linkages are going to be open for debate. - J Greb 07:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fundamentally OR. "Further, if we review Superman's early days and compare him to Uncle Sam, it seems that they're more similar than given credit here." But we cannot review or compare anything. Someone else has to, first. Serpent's Choice 11:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep seems OK as an entry and a lot of things can be sourced to primary material but I fin the whole Earth-X column suspect (I can't see anything on the various entries to suggest the links - I don't have the source quoted but that would need checking solidly). However, the problems with the entry seem better served by working on the entry not deleting the whole thing, as most of the table seems fairly solid. (Emperor 13:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Delete this is obviously OR and doesn't belong in WikiPedia. Also wholly NN. NBeale 05:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a clarification of 'original research' is needed; the term is being bandied about like it's some kind of dirty word. Here's my understanding of what 'original research' is:

Claim or claims that have never been made by anyone before with no information of any kind to back it up at all, and no basis in fact

From what I'm seeing here, it seems it's more like this:

Any example of information that has not been vetted through a highly rigorous review by some undetermined number of non-specific, yet somehow authoritative, person, persons, group, or groups

I am not the first to make these claims, and my evidence is 25 years of Multiverse comics, lectures/appearances of comic-book creators at conventions, and industry magazines. I'm not sure what you're going to want as 'proof of concept' here. I'm quite good with recognizing patterns, and perhaps that's working against me here.

Bear in mind that this page isn't trying to say something like aliens were behind the assassination of John F. Kennedy - it's just a little comparison chart between fictional characters.

Also, to state the obvious, ALL research at one time was original - that doesn't automatically make it wrong, particularly if it can be backed up (and sometimes, like what is presented in JLA #136 vol. 1, the back-up is subtext). Thanks. Starmiter 12:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Starmiter, I appreciate your devotion to this particular topic, and it definitely holds some interest for some. However, I think the point that we're trying to resolve is that if it is original research within Wikipedia, it does not belong here. That was the agreement we made when we joined, a one of three core guidelines. The references you've cited only marginally touch on these topics, and the only definitive characters that were specifically mentioned relate to the obvious correlations of the Supermen, Batmen, Green Lanterns and so forth. Beyond that, its really in the eye of the beholder. And when that is the case, it is best to find a different forum for such an entry rather than on this site. Netkinetic ^(t/c/@) 03:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.