Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cancelled Nintendo games

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:03, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

List of cancelled Nintendo games[edit]

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Relies heavily on unreliable sources. Other entries are unsourced. Even if reliable sources could be obtained, the topic of cancelled games for "Nintendo" platforms is not a cohesive topic in and of itself. There are lists of canceled games for each individual system elsewhere on wiki. TarkusAB^talk 20:14, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If this is kept it needs a new title since Nintendo Games makes it sounds like we are taking about cancelled games that were going to be made by Nintendo not cancelled games that were going to be on one of their consoles.--69.157.253.30 (talk) 20:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 20:19, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Technology-related deletion discussions. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 20:19, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I feel most of these sources are not as "unreliable" as the persion who proposed the nomination pretends. And if the website "NINTENDO64EVER" is though to be unreliable, it should be demostrated that they got some things wrong to show that. In the meantime, you can just put a require addional sources template next to each of these sources to point out the need of addictional verification. And Even if we exclude all the sources from NINTENDO64EVER, there are still plenty of reliable sources that this article uses, such as exerpts of magazines from the time period. The article could still be considerable long without all the content from the so-called "unreliable" sources. Therefore, I think this article should be kept. Emass100 (talk) 20:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I did add an external link at the bottom of the page. While the page it goes to is not in itself reliable, it contains details of magazine issues and pages that can be used as reliable sources to note the intended release of those games before cancellation. Deltasim (talk) 21:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Reliable sources can always been found and placed and there are some existing ones currently. I agree that the title can be changed to something like "List of cancelled games on Nintendo systems". I disagree with putting all cancelled games together as the number would be enormous on one page. I also disagree with putting cancelled games on the list of games on the respective systems, because those lists contain officially released games and the cancelled games are more like extras. Ideally you would want the most notable cancelled games on the list such as "Super Mario 64 2". Deltasim (talk) 21:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If we put the issue of sourcing aside, I don't think my other concern can be addressed. That is, the topic of "games cancelled on Nintendo systems" is not a topic discussed by journalists. I have seen articles that discuss games canceled for the 64DD, or games canceled for the Super Nintendo, but never seen an article that discusses games cancelled across Nintendo platforms all together. Therefore, we are creating a made-up topic. TarkusAB^talk 21:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While it might be true that this topic has never been addressed so broadly, the topic of the games cancelled for each individual consoles certainly has. We could separate this article into into one article for every consoles listed here, and it would adress this issue. We could therefore see this article as a merged topics article. Emass100 (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree we could separate into separate articles for each console, but a merged topic article like this one currently fails WP:NOTESAL. TarkusAB^talk 03:57, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this fails WP:NOTESAL. This is an article made out of multiple lists, all of which pass WP:NOTESAL, grouped together because of their affinities. Emass100 (talk) 05:49, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some of those consoles such as Virtual Boy would be pretty short considering the few cancellations. In addition to a list, there would have to lengthy sentences to explain the reasons for the cancellations and the efforts that were put into the games (which fit better in the individual game articles. I can't see going in this direction as making this one list a big improvement. Deltasim (talk) 06:44, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you all don't think this fails WP:NOTESAL, then can someone provide a reliable source where cancelled games for Nintendo platforms are "discussed as a group or set". There isn't one on the page. TarkusAB^talk 11:43, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep However, needs work, namely in the addition of viable sources and removal of unsourced non-notable titles per WP:DIRECTORY. Not every single game has to be included. sixtynine ^{• whaddya want? •} 21:56, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. If this was just for actual Nintendo games, I would vote to keep in concept, but as this is for literally any game meant for a Nintendo console that got canceled, it's too large in scope. Why stop there? Where is our cancelled Sony and Microsoft games lists? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 07:40, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An individual page that have a list for cancelled Sony games or one for Sega games can be created. Consider this page as a sample for other future lists of cancelled games. If this Nintendo page works, the same could be applied to other major systems, provided that notability is established. Deltasim (talk) 11:02, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I'm pretty sure there's a way to make an article out of this, I'm just unsure of how to rework the scope that makes sense. "Nintendo games" is confusing in definition and scope. But cancelled video games are frequently covered by reliable sources. I'm not sure how it'd make sense to split up. Might be possible just make a "List of canceled video games" list and have the inclusion criteria be games that have their own dedicated articles, so it'd be restricted to, let's say, major ones like Sonic Xtreme rather than everyone one of the 9 cancelled Sonic games. Or maybe just do it by dev/pub comapny? Sergecross73 msg me 15:58, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can see where the confusion lies. You might think by "cancelled", those games were cancelled altogether such as "Sonic Xtreme" which never saw release on Sega Saturn or any Sega console to follow. The scope is for games that were intended for release on one or more Nintendo consoles/handhelds, but never made it to the particular platform(s). For example Aero The-Acrobat 2 was released on SNES but was cancelled for Game Boy Advance. It might qualify as a cancelled port/remake if you will. The list I put together includes a combination cancelled games that were never released and games with cancelled ports and remakes. Deltasim (talk) 17:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The misunderstanding was more that someone moved it to a new title after the AFD started, from List of cancelled Nintendo Games to List of cancelled games for Nintendo consoles, and didn't make note of it really here. The title is an improvement, its timing and implementation was just...not ideal. The new title gives it a clearer scope at least. Sergecross73 msg me 17:21, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The title makes all the difference, in my opinion. Gives it real scope rather than just an infodump. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the same note can someone move Lists of Nintendo games since it had the ssmme issue as the old title for this article?--69.157.253.30 (talk) 00:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It needs work, but it satisfies the notability guidelines. Felicia (talk) 00:12, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but rework so the scope is limited to only games Nintendo was developing and/or was going to publish. A list of every canceled game on a Nintendo platform regardless of developer or publisher is way too broad. JOE BRO 64 19:22, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Where would the remaining games be listed in that case? Deltasim (talk) 19:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Deltasim, Please strike one of your 'keep' votes. You are only allowed to vote once. Thanks. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:56, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's not my vote. Look carefully and you'll see it is TheJoebro64's. Also check the edit history at 21:23, May 16, 2018‎ . I was not voting a second time, just asking a question about the scope. Deltasim (talk) 15:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The list is shit. I've just removed the unreliable sources (160 of them!). If you keep voters don't make any attempt to improve the sourcing on this article, I'm going to start culling it. --The1337gamer (talk) 21:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment What would complicate the scope of the list is listing games that were released in one region such as NA/USA but cancelled in PAL/EU for example. Personally I don't think this list really needs to expand to that scope because indicating the existence of the games on particular platforms is what the list is all about. Indicating the cancelled regions can be done easily on the individual platform lists (such as List of Nintendo Entertainment System games) with the correct references provided. Deltasim (talk) 10:30, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that if a game was released in some regions and not others it’s the release in those particular regions that was cancelled not the game itself.--69.157.253.30 (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete There's a tag already on Wikipedia that helps to categorize which title was planned, cancelled or went unreleased for the NES. We all need to place the exact source as to which "X" game was planned or not. I suggest to delete this article and put to good use the Category:Cancelled Nintendo Entertainment System games tag. KGRAMR (talk) 01:04, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This "tag" is only for the NES though. Some of these consoles don't have this tag system. Also: having this article around will help you make good use of the good use the Category:Cancelled Nintendo Entertainment System games tag because of the sources here. there is no harm keeping both, and they are not duplicates of each other. Emass100 (talk) 06:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Categories do not provide references and don't establish notability. Some articles have no references to suggest that those games tagged cancelled games were ever planned or in development in the first place. This list compiles the references together, so you can be sure if a cancelled game is a hoax/rumor or for real. Deltasim (talk) 09:05, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Emass100:@Deltaism: You can both apply the tag and a reference talking about the cancelled port or even make an article about a particular cancelled NES game. That's what i tried to do with the List of cancelled Atari Jaguar games article that i single-handedly created, by adding all of the references that i could find but unfortunately i gave up on it once a Wikipedia user going by the name StraightDown came a started making that article a complete mess (That dude acts under the agenda of trolls that are moderators at AtariAge and Ross Sillifant/Lost Dragon/The Voice of Truth/Last Shogun/roguetrooper/Rogue Trooper/LD/Chryssalid/The Furthest Man From Home/themekon, a dude that will "correct" you in regards to unreleased games on all platforms, by self-referencing his own interviews and articles that he has posted from multiple websites to no end and most of the time posts comment without actual proof of what he's talking about). Now, i would love to help in finding stuff about unreleased NES games but sadly, due to that bad experience i had 2-3 months ago, i suggest to delete the article. I'm not doing this to be the bad guy so keep that in mind. KGRAMR (talk) 06:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@KGRAMR: You might not consider this list a new experience to do you good for what the Atari one did, however if you have any suggestions on improving this Nintendo list I'm open to them. Deltasim (talk) 18:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Deltaism: I'll keep that in mind! KGRAMR (talk) 18:57, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kirbanzo (talk) 18:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. It's not about cancelled Nintendo (as in the developer) video games, which to me would make some sense, but about games that at one point have been announced for on any Nintendo console. It also included multiplatform games, even if they were released on other platforms. It's largely unsourced. It's also confusing and vague. Klonoa 2: Lunatea's Veil does mention in the article that it was announced to be released for the GameCube, Area 51 however doesn't mention Nintendo. South Park was released for the Nintendo 64, but not for the Game Boy Color, so it is listed there. That's WP:SYNTH and/or WP:OR. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 11:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm slowly but surely fixing those problems with at least one reliable source for each game. I'm narrowing the list down to games that actually did have a planned or coming release before cancellation and removing the ones that were rumoured to have cancelled releases. I'll check out the games you linked and see if they are official cancelled ports/games or not. Deltasim (talk) 11:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I think one of the key problems here--TarkusAB's question to Deltasim about whether there are reliable sources that describe the subject as a set--has not been sufficiently addressed.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, A Train^talk 07:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 15:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Many of the references that have been added are not news citations about any particular game's cancellation, but previews, announcements, or other notices just mentioning the game, proving it was in development or at least was an idea at some point. It's true that finding sources explicitly mentioning cancellation will be impossible for many games because most just become vaporware, but likewise, assuming cancellation becomes WP:OR because some may have been reworked into other games. And as mentioned above, many of these games were released on non-Nintendo platforms, again bringing into question which I still don't know the answer to: "Do we have sources that demonstrate the notability of cancelled games for Nintendo consoles as a group or set?"

From researching sources myself, I believe the answer to be no. I have seen many listicle articles titled "25 Games We'll Never Get to Play" or some variation that discuss games that were completely never released, but I have never seen articles that give weight or discuss any notability of those cancelled specifically for Nintendo platforms. Furthermore, I haven't identified any weight given in how cancelled games are reported so far as making any list short of "List of cancelled video games" would not be satisfactory, and that would be too large. We have CATs for all this: Category:Cancelled video games. TarkusAB^talk 18:23, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the end, I think the only people who can establish notability for most if not all the cancelled games as a set are Nintendo themselves. The best I can do is find two or more cancelled games on a single article. The best success I've had so far is 6 cancelled Wii U games and 25 cancelled Nintendo 64 games. The problem with categories is that they can be tagged on any article. Several articles such as Tomato Adventure, Trap Gunner and Wario Land 4 have been tagged as Cancelled Game Boy Color games, but I have found no evidence or references that GBC versions of those games were ever planned. Another problem with categories is that it cannot be applied to cancelled games that do not have an article of their own such as "Titus Jr". Deltasim (talk) 19:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Making a list doesn't solve the problem of folks mislabeling the games as canceled. In fact, half of the entries on this list are currently unsourced and nothing can stop editors from adding unsourced entries in the future, or entries with dubious or unreliable sources. As is always with Wikipedia, readers are responsible for conducting their own due diligence and reading the articles and checking sources themselves. Regarding games like Titus Jr., if it is not notable enough for its own article, we don't need a special list to ensure they are cataolgued. TarkusAB^talk 20:05, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Lot of blue links on that list, so it aids in navigation. Also far more useful than a category since you can see the Cancellation date, Developer, Publisher, and which Nintendo console it was to be released on, all in one nice comparison list. Ample reliable sources to prove the information is correct here and in the linked articles. Dream Focus 19:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Someone please enlighten me? While I have played video games I am not a "gamer". "IF" we are to consider a very large list, possible because there are blue links that aid in navigation, that at most has 25 members (I think that is the most I have seen) then:

1. What would be looked for (or what audience) that would be helped with this list?
2. How do we justify members of a "group" if there are/is sources that confirm only 25? Would not the rest be synthesis and even OR when lacking sources.
3. Considering the above how can mix-and-matching games from separate consoles be in accordance to notability guidelines?
4. How is a list that includes games that someone was "developing and/or was going to publish" be verified by other than primary sources?
5. If this is a list that aids navigation but is about related items that share the same name (Nintendo) would this not be a set index article? Otr500 (talk) 23:34, 10 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.