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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sandstein 09:44, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

List of Shinkansen Henkei Robo Shinkalion characters[edit]

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List of Shinkansen Henkei Robo Shinkalion characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Fails WP:NLIST. This is typical WP:FANCRUFT Dom from Paris (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 12:56, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
:*Delete per WP:TNT, the references can be saved for a future list. I normally would vote keep here but this list dives too deeply into a fan's point of view. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How so? Looks like just basic indisputable information. Dream Focus 20:02, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I only had to look quickly before I saw "Driver of the Shinkalion E3 Tsubasa and Shinkalion E3 Tsubasa Iron Wing. A 10-year-old who lives in Yonezawa, Yamagata Prefecture". What the heck is a "Shinkalion E3 Tsubasa" or Shinkalion E3 Tsubasa Iron Wing? The list needs a major rewrite so it isn't from a fan's WP:POV hence my delete vote to blow it up and start over. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:46, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Describing the content of a work of fiction, using the accurate names and terms of elements of that work, is not the same thing as a fan POV. This does not seem excessively detailed or involve any kind of POV/OR interpretation of the content, and if anything your example here would be calling for more detail to provide context ("Driver of two transforming mechas, the Shinkalion E3 Tusbasa and Shinkalion E3 Tsubasa Iron Wing"), not less. That would seem to be significant and relevant in a show about transforming mechas, just as it's significant in the context of Star Wars that Han Solo and Chewbacca pilot the Millennium Falcon space freighter. If you can give us an idea of what you think such a description should look like instead, that may help us understand where you're coming from. But for now your complaint does not seem accurate here. postdlf (talk) 18:48, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is, in Star Wars the "Millennium Falcon" is listed as a "space freighter", and readers here are supposed to know what a "Shinkalion" is? I'm all for keeping character lists per @Masumrezarock100: below, but for some there is just too much to be done. Maybe it would be best if someone who hadn't heard of the series redo the list? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:43, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hence my comment about adding "more detail to provide context." Which is fixable and so should be addressed through editing, not deletion. postdlf (talk) 20:45, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I will relent and hope for a massive re-write. I might touch the article here as well as I have never seen or heard about the series until now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:31, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Complaining that you don't know what a Shinkalion is when that word is in the name of the series, is ridiculous. People wouldn't see a character list without knowing what the series was about, and would thus know that's what the robots are called. List of Neon Genesis Evangelion characters mentions they are the pilots of evas, without telling you what an eva is. Dream Focus 18:20, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No comment on the list, but if it is deleted then the character section of Shinkansen Henkei Robo Shinkalion should be restored, featuring the main characters as a bare minimum. —Xezbeth (talk) 16:32, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge, character lists are standard coverage for notable series, and may be WP:SPLIT due to WP:SIZE. Whether this can be trimmed and merged back to the parent article is an editorial decision for those knowledgeable with the subject, not for AFD to resolve, but in any event outright deletion is not a valid option per WP:ATD. I'm also struck by how inaccurate the deletion !voter is above, as the descriptions here are very brief and not "fan"-POV. postdlf (talk) 17:15, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Category:Lists_of_anime_and_manga_characters shows just how common these are. Sometimes someone tries to delete one, and it always almost ends in being kept. If its too long for the main article its split off like this. How its always been. Dream Focus 20:01, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And this is exactly the problem. They have become common despite not being encyclopedic and being pure FANCRUFT. But hey if they always get kept why not keep this one! --Dom from Paris (talk) 08:00, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Start a RFC about it, and discuss the issue there. Dream Focus 12:05, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If they always get kept, that means there is consensus to keep them. You can always ignore content you are not interested in; it’s a free wiki. postdlf (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Postdlf: You know as well as I do that there are certain subjects that get kept not because they meet notability criteria but because there is a solid base of fans that form a consensus against policy and guidelines. Notably certain sports subjects, certain types of music and manga/anime. When you say I should just ignore it does that apply to all new pages patrolling? 99% of the pages I patrol do not interest me in the least, I try and apply the guidelines and policies and nominate those that do not meet them and tag those that can be tagged and mark as reviewed those that have no issues. I find it odd that an admin would tell a patroller to ignore pages that don't interest him. The "it's a free wiki" is something I've heard from inexperienced editors who do not want to follow the rules here for exemple --Dom from Paris (talk) 17:57, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And others may interpret guidelines differently than you. There's a trap in thinking that "rules" exist in a vacuum outside of how they are applied. I'm not aware of a specific pro-anime bias, and it's not a subject I have interest in myself, but as I noted above, "character lists are standard coverage for notable series" and are consensus-supported, whether retained in the parent article or split due to size. postdlf (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Postdlf: But here's the thing...unless I'm very much mistaken the anime doesn't have a separate page, or at least there isn't a link to that page on the main page. If the anime doesn't have a page how can we have a WP:SPINOUT for a non-existent page. Shouldn't we have a page first for the anime before we decide that we can't have room and list the dozens and dozens of characters and the actors voicing them? Shouldn't we first have a list on the page and eventually collapse it before creating a list page? Dom from Paris (talk) 22:29, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The multimedia franchise to which these characters belong has an article that functions as a parent for this list. I'm not particularly concerned about hairsplitting about type(s) of media beyond that, and as this is the first time you've raised this question, ten days after your nomination, you obviously aren't either. Merge to that parent has already been suggested, including by me. Really the more this discussion proceeds, the more it shows how inappropriate AFD is for resolving this kind of content and organization decision. Yet no discussion had been first attempted on the talk page of this list, the parent article, or the creator/main editor's talk page. postdlf (talk) 03:13, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's the first time I mention it because I hadn't realised that there wasnt an article about the anime. I disagree that AFD is not an appropriate place to discuss whether a page is notable or not as per the different policies guidelines and essays but that is just mu opinion. Dom from Paris (talk) 06:38, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑Scottywong| talk _ 16:10, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added some sources. I oppose mergeing this list with the main article because it's too large. Masum Reza📞 00:03, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:TNT. If it is notable, let it be recreated with actual sources. The Keep votes offer absolutely no arguments as to why the article should be kept, instead making pure WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments. Are we sure this isn't straight up trolling at this point? "This article should be kept because they are common" is not a valid answer.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 17:21, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you TNT this, it can be merged into the main article, but keep as simple bullet lists. There are still a ton of characters, like with Majestic Prince (manga). AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 01:47, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I would like some extra time to work on the article. Worse case scenario, a drafting is a recommended decision.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 15:38, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Draftify so that it can be worked on further by anyone until it's up to decent standards. I'm sick of feeling inclined to relist this discussion a second. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 02:55, 9 August 2019 (UTC) Update: switching to keep per Postdif since it seems to be a decent WP:CFORK due to the size of the anime's ensemble cast. Still, improvements are recommended. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 18:07, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@FoxyGrampa75: You should be more careful when relisting. Non admins are subject to relist bias. Masum Reza📞 04:15, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Masumrezarock100: Thank you. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 04:17, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Per Postdlf. Character lists like this are necessary when the media in question features a lot of characters. Sk8erPrince (talk) 13:26, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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