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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The notability of lists can be dificult to assess. We have generally be more tolerant of lists than we have of articles, and this can encourage the formation of lists that may be rather too specific. WP:SALAT gives some guidance. While WP:NOTDIRECTORY is often cited when somebody feels a list is not notable, it should be bourne in mind that we do have featured lists, and that a list of bus routes can have potential, see List of bus routes in Manhattan and List of bus routes in London. A guideline on bus lists was drawn up - Wikipedia:WikiProject buses/Bus route list guide, but withdrawn as the topic was seen as not encyclopedic. However, there are a number of bus lists - Category:Lists of bus routes, which shows some interest in the topic - and an interest that could probably do with some guidance. The consensus here is that this particular list is not notable enough, but that does not imply that all bus lists are non-notable. Each list should be assesed individually. SilkTork *YES! 20:36, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of Pace bus routes[edit]

List of Pace bus routes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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As noted in the talk for that page, it is not encyclopedic in that it violates Wikipedia is not a directory; it is not properly maintained, and current information is available at the agency's home page. -Busjack (talk) 19:25, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per nom. If one wanted to know the numbers and names of the routes on Pace, one would be better served to look them up on Pace's official web site at pacebus.com, which is where all the information in this article came from anyway. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The article's admittedly in poor shape, but lists of bus routes are a valid encyclopedic topic; using similar pages as a model, the routes could be converted into a table with the route number, name, and termini for starters. There are plenty of these sort of articles for other bus systems and cities, several of which have survived AfD, so consensus doesn't appear to support the idea that a list of bus routes is a directory by nature. TheCatalyst31 Reaction•Creation 23:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bus_routes_in_London then? I see two things going against each other here... firstly this information is undoubtedly useful and verifiable, it's also easy to find several references from other sources..... yet.... what if wikipedia had lists of all bus routes eventually? Who could ever maintain these and keep them up to date?DubZog (talk) 23:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The fact that articles within a certain area will require regular maintenance to keep it up-to-date is not a reason to delete those articles. We have thousands of articles on active professional athletes which require regular updates to keep their statistics accurate, yet we still keep these articles as notable. Also keep in mind that only certain large cities have extensive bus systems; there would never be an unmanageable number of lists as long as this one. TheCatalyst31 Reaction•Creation 23:34, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • You wrote: "Also keep in mind that only certain large cities have extensive bus systems; there would never be an unmanageable number of lists as long as this one." Based on the information from your user page, I assume that you're from the States, where public transport systems are considerably less common, than in some parts of the world. In Europe, for example, it is commonplace for cities of even a few hundred thousand people to have notable bus systems. For example Tallinn, a city of ca 400 000 people, has ca 60 bus routes, 8 trolleybus routes and 4 streetcar routes. Pärnu, a city of ca 45 000 people, has a bus network of ca 20 routes. In addition to that there are extensive regional bus networks as well, so really quite a lot to write about. And mind you, whereas lots of people are really into sports, I can't see public transport having enough "fans" to keep all those articles up to date. You are entitled to disagree, but to me it seems like a task similar to keeping an up-to-date list of all people living in London: extremely difficult to achieve, yet... not really worth the effort. DubZog (talk) 00:03, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • It's actually not all that different in the US, aside from the absence of streetcars; most sizable cities do have a network of some kind, and there are several regional networks as well (including, to a limited extent, Pace itself). I'm not positive that all of these need standalone lists, as the smaller ones could possibly be merged into the main article, but Pace is a larger network to begin with. (Incidentally, Tallinn's list of bus routes previously survived an AfD FWIW.) And public transport has more interested editors than you think; note that there are numerous featured lists of rapid transit stations. TheCatalyst31 Reaction•Creation 01:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Right, well.. it clearly seems to be the case that in general, such lists have survived AfD, so if this is what we want to go by, this one should as well. I'm personally still not convinced that this kind of information is encyclopeadic, but that is, I guess, a matter of taste. DubZog (talk) 17:24, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This list is a good starting point. More details of each route, etc. would be helpful in the future. As I recall these don't change all that much too often and there will be some detailed discussion of some routes in RSes and lots of trivial coverage. Hobit (talk) 00:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]


After reading the above, I still don't see any indication that this gives information not available to a link to the Route Finder, and especially no one stepping up to maintain it. Busjack (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • A) it has potential, B) no one actively maintaining it isn't a reason for deletion. Hobit (talk) 01:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to add that no one has refuted that this violates Wikipedia is not a directory, and is a fairly useless directory at that, even if it were maintained, which it is not. Busjack (talk) 01:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It currently is nothing but a directory, and a bad one at that. But it has massive room for expansion and the PACE system has huge coverage, often at the route level. Hobit (talk) 09:10, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you admit that it violates WP is not a directory. And, while I see this prompted Catalyst to do something are you going to maintain it? Busjack (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The argument that wikipedia is not a directory is a compelling one. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 02:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There are no listed References, and most of the Table is blank. Anyone in need of this information should definitely go to Pace Transit's own Website instead. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete- Wikipedia is not a directory. Reyk YO! 08:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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