Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Net Yaroze games

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List of Net Yaroze games[edit]

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There are a mountain of problems that riddle this list. To help fill in those unfamiliar with this hardware, the Net Yaroze was a limited circulation model of the PlayStation designed specifically for creating homebrew software, specifically video games.

The list is a big fat serving of WP:NOTCATALOG. None of the games produced for this system were ever commercially released, they were distributed for free via the internet or promotional CDs included in gaming magazines. No Net Yaroze games are notable on their own outside those that are simply ports of pre-existing games. It's simply useless for readers that are interested in navigating through pages, because there ARE no pages.

The sources are abysmal. Most of them come off as ref stuffing and feel like duplicates of each other. The sourcing used in the actual list does not discuss Net Yaroze games as a group, and range from random website catalogs to fansites we would never consider reliable. A list with 80 sources and none of them actually provide any significant/in-depth/independent commentary on any of these is a serious problem.

WP:LISTN states that sources for lists must be "discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources." None of the sources here have that, and as such, it should be deleted. Namcokid 47 19:10, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Namcokid 47 19:10, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Namcokid 47 19:10, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The thing is, some of these games were released on PlayStation Underground, Official UK PlayStation Magazine and Hyper PlayStation Re-mix demo discs to name a few so in a way, they were technically released. Some of the netyaroze-europe.com urls are from the old severs Sony used to host, since Net Yaroze users could host their own sites via their serves and even share their games on forums. Even if it gets deleted, at least it was fun to make this list, as many people had their video game careers kickstarted by the Yaroze. If anybody really feels enticed to rework the Net Yaroze page, i left a plethora of sources to expand that article... Roberth Martinez (talk) 20:04, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

None of this actually explains why you want the list to be kept. Namcokid 47 20:11, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Only four have links to articles. Some of these games only seemed to have been released in Japan. Did they get coverage in any Japanese media? Dream Focus 00:48, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I can actually explain that: I wanted to try something different, given that one of the editors in the WP:VG told me not to link old magazines a long time ago. I can try to provide links at least to the magazines that covered the games here. BTW, Dream Focus; Yes, Net Yaroze did get coverage in Japanese magazines, some even hosting events and awards for Yaroze titles such as Dengeki PlayStation and Hyper PlayStation Re-mix but since most of the issues remain unavailable to read online and finding Japanese info about the Yaroze is even harder than finding western magazines that did covered it, I preferred not bothering with it except the few that I did unearthed. Roberth Martinez (talk) 03:04, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding the rationale(s) for deletion here. WP:NOTCATALOG doesn't really seem applicable to me. This isn't an indiscriminate grouping of random things (e.g., "List of objects that are yellow") or any of the other types of information that NOTCATALOG seems to bar. Each of the list entries here has a source, the vast majority of which appear to be from sources that the community considers reliable (e.g., PlayStation Official Magazine – UK, Edge, Giant Bomb). It's a list article so each source stands for the proposition that the item is appropriate for inclusion in the list, and its unsurprising that they, by themselves, don't have significant coverage regarding each game. Furthermore, as WP:LISTN states "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been." I don't think there's a debate that Net Yaroze (which includes the games themselves) meets GNG. So, in short, (1) I don't understand the application of NOTCATALOG here, (2) I disagree with the comments about the sources (or at least the lion's share), and (3) I feel like this AFD is contrary to some of what is stated in LISTN. But, that's just my two cents. DocFreeman24 (talk) 02:41, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand your second point in particular: "Each of the list entries here has a source, the vast majority of which appear to be from sources that the community considers reliable (e.g., PlayStation Official Magazine – UK, Edge, Giant Bomb)." Ignoring the sources that clutter the lead, you have 24C Resource (database site), Nick F's Yaroze Homepage! (fansite), Yaroze Scene (another fansite), Net Yaroze (ネットやろうぜ) (primary source?), and PSXDEV Network (fansite). Most of the reliable sources used are just talking about the console itself and not the individual games, and the Giant Bomb source is unreliable because it comes from their database (which is user-generated) and not articles from staff. When most of the sources are unreliable or don't offer any coverage on this topic, then why even have a list like this at all? Namcokid47 17:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment - The links i've placed on some of the sources now do discuss most of the games and demos themselves. 24C, Nick F's and Net Yaroze (ネットやろうぜ) use the netyaroze-europe.com url from the old severs Sony used to host the Net Yaroze forums with. Roberth Martinez (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - That does not make them any more reliable. Actually that would just make them primary sources, which do not establish notability. Namcokid 47 17:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Perhaps I'm not understanding, but for many (perhaps even most?) of the entries in the list, there is a citation to "Official UK PlayStation Magazine" or a similar reliable source. I wasn't referring to the ones cited in the introductory paragraphs. I don't agree with your assertion that "Most of the reliable sources used are just talking about the console itself and not the individual games." I checked several and they each referenced individual games. So I still don't see the case for deletion here and I think we'd be better served by continuing to improve the article, per WP:ATD. DocFreeman24 (talk) 06:33, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Looking through the references that are valid, these sorts of games do get coverage. Those that don't should still be on the list to make it complete. Dream Focus 17:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Maybe the best organised list article I've seen in all my years on wikipedia. Several of the sources cover these games as a group, making it a valid topic. They tend to be a little weak but you don't need top tier RS for this sort of topic. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:41, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.