Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of MAS*H cast members

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Reading the discussion here, there's no doubt the basic information contained here should be in the encyclopedia, it's just a matter of how it should be organized into the various articles, and there's no real agreement on that. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:16, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

List of MAS*H cast members

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Unsourced list of cast members and "one-episode guest appearances" on television program.

There's no debate that actors with wikilinks meet WP:N and that M*A*S*H was a popular television show. But there are no sources about the topic of M*A*S*H cast members and guest stars treated as a whole, and list article fails WP:TVCAST, WP:V, and WP:LISTCRUFT.

Main cast and characters already covered in List of M*A*S*H characters and M*A*S*H (TV series)#Characters. AldezD (talk) 11:50, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – I'm unsure about how notable the article is by itself, but there appears to be a lot of information that isn't useful regardless of deletion or not. Does Wikipedia really need that list of actors on a specific TV show that died? Besides, they should list who played who in order to try and stop this from being deleted. Redditaddict69 12:35, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment—Characters and actors portraying them is already listed in List of M*A*S*H characters, a separate article. AldezD (talk) 14:22, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Redirect? Redditaddict6 9 14:21, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:38, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:39, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:39, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The sole viable questions I see here are whether this is a proper WP:SPLIT from the parent topic and whether it usefully organizes information in a manner not duplicative or redundant to List of M*A*S*H characters. Those are questions of editor judgment to be addressed in relation to the presentation of information about the topic TV series. I don't see it as a meaningful question at all to ask whether "there are sources about the topic of M*A*S*H cast members" (though honestly, as with any ensemble of such cultural impact, I'd expect there are FWIW), and it's frankly absurd to claim that it isn't verifiable who was or wasn't a cast member in a notable TV series such as this, so I wonder if the nominator is simply confused as to how V applies here. Another possible analysis may be whether this satisfies WP:LISTPURP as an index of notable actors. postdlf (talk) 23:20, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The main cast and actors portraying recurring characters are already in List of M*A*S*H characters and shouldn't be duplicated in another list. Whether there should be a List of M*A*S*H guest stars is a separate question. (I split off just such a list just to get it out of its main article - List of The Andy Griffith Show guest stars - and I'd be very interested in seeing what the consensus is.) Clarityfiend (talk) 08:04, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Answer to whether there should be a separate guest stars article: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of M*A*S*H guest stars. AldezD (talk) 12:02, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - A question that I often think of in such AFDs is, you may not see the value in it, and you may or may not be correct in that view, but why invest time in discussing and deleting it instead of just ignoring it? Maybe that's a WP:HARMLESS question, and once an AFD is started I know it's not going to win the day, but seriously, why is this content so problematic that it's worth going out of our way to delete it? postdlf (talk) 14:19, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- List of The Andy Griffith Show guest stars was nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of The Andy Griffith Show guest stars. Cunard (talk) 04:59, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 19:56, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in reliable sources.
The subject passes Wikipedia:Notability#Stand-alone lists, which says, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." I will show below that "M*A*S*H cast members" has been treated as a "a group or set by independent reliable sources".

Sources
1. Sherman, Dale (2016). M.A.S.H. FAQ: Everything Left to Know About the Best Care Anywhere. Milwaukee, Wisconsin: Hal Leonard Corporation. ISBN 978-1-49506-379-4. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  Chapter 16 of the book is titled "We Tried to Get Pat O'Brien: The Main Cast Over the Years".
  The book notes:
  
  As mentioned in chapter 15, a series dealing with a military medical camp during a war that runs eleven seasons is bound to cast a lot of actors over that period. Hundreds. The list on the Internet Movie Database (imdb.com) goes on for more than seven hundred lines, each describing another actor who played at least one role (sometimes more) on the program. Some characters would be introduced early on that eventually vanished without fanfare; others would manage to stick around for many years and be given a line or two. In some cases, certain actors who appeared on MASH would go on to further fame (or at least in one case, to renewed popularity). Actors who fall into these categories will be covered in subsequent chapters. Instead here, the focus is on the original six regular characters, then a seventh, an eighth, and subsequently, replacements for three of the originals.
  The book provides pages of coverage about the biographies of each of the original cast members and their replacements and how they became cast members on the show.
2. Wittebols, James H. (2003) [1998]. Watching M*A*S*H, Watching America: A Social History of the 1972-1983 Television Series. Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland & Company. ISBN 0-7864-1701-3. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  The book's episode guide beginning on page 161 discusses the cast and crew for each season as well as information about every show.
3. Solomonson, Ed; O'Neill, Mark (2015). TV's M*A*S*H: The Ultimate Guide Book. Albany, Georgia: BearManor Media. p. 277. ISBN 978-1-59393-501-6. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  The book notes:
  
  Not all episodes of the series featured each member of the main cast — only Alan Alda would appear in every episode of M*A*S*H. What follows is a list of the episodes in which cast members did not appear.
  The book on page 277 lists and discusses these cast members:
  Pages 278 and 279 (which likely discuss more cast members) are not visible in the Google Books view.
4. Nguyen, Vi-An (2018-02-28). "The Cast of M*A*S*H: Then and Now". Parade. Archived from the original on 2018-09-04. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  The article discusses who 10 actors portrayed on the show as well as what the actors did after the show:
5. Manwaring, Kurt (2018-07-23). "Actress Loretta Swit says "M*A*S*H" cast still 'family' 35 years after its record-breaking finale". Deseret News. Archived from the original on 2018-09-04. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  The article notes:
  
  Swit’s “family” includes familiar names such as Alan Alda, Harry Morgan and Mike Farrell, with whom she is especially close.
6. "'M*A*S*H': Where are they now?". CNN. 2016-01-01. Archived from the original on 2018-09-04. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  The article discusses these cast members:
7. Abbey, Jennifer (2013-02-28). "M*A*S*H: Where Are They Now?". American Broadcasting Company. Archived from the original on 2018-09-04. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  The article discusses these cast members:
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the subject to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 04:59, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the argument that List of M*A*S*H cast members and List of M*A*S*H characters can only be duplicates, compare List of The Simpsons characters and List of The Simpsons cast members for how the information could be presented differently.
For example, the List of The Simpsons cast members includes an "Awards and nominations" section that lists the cast member, the character played, and the award won. List of M*A*S*H cast members also could have an "Awards and nominations" section since M*A*S*H cast members won a number of awards for their portrayals.
Another difference is that a List of M*A*S*H cast members article would have information about the cast members' history on the show which List of M*A*S*H characters would not cover. For example, here is information about cast member Alan Alda joined the show from the 2016 Hal Leonard Corporation book M.A.S.H. FAQ: Everything Left to Know About the Best Care Anywhere that could be included in the cast members article:
It was while making The Glass House that Alda got the script for the MASH pilot. Alda was hesitant, even though he felt the script was excellent. He had been married for a few years by this point, with his wife and daughters living in New Jersey; a series would mean possibly uprooting the family to California or him being separated from his family during filming (Alda would go with the second choice, commuting every weekend to his family in New Jersey). He was also worried that a pilot script could only convey the pilot and not the series. Alda asked to meet with Gene Reynolds and Larry Gelbart at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel coffee shop the night before rehearsals were to begin to discuss the show. "What Alda was saying was," Reynolds remembered in the book They'll Never Put That on Air, "I don't want to do McHale's Navy. I don't want it to be one of these jerkoff things. The pilot is very good, but are you gonna stick with it? What's it going to be?" After talking for hours, all three agreed that the show needed to avoid falling into the standards of the military comedies that had come before it, even though some of them were classics in their own way. It had to be about people facing the ugliness of war and struggling to stay sane.
By the time they were finished Alda agreed to sign on. …
Cunard (talk) 04:59, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as meets WP:NLIST as clearly shown above with much coverage in reliable sources and it is also a very valid split from the main article to assist loading and navigation, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 19:16, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 04:14, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ Neutral: notability is not inherited from either M*A*S*H or the notable actors. The sources above discuss only the main cast, not every actor who ever appeared on the show. The list as it stands is merely a long list of names, with no context, and I fail how to see how it could be developed into anything more without becoming a duplicate of List of M*A*S*H characters. The Simpsons is quite a different case, because there actors are playing multiple roles. Awards belong at List of awards and nominations received by M*A*S*H (TV series). Discussion of what impact M*A*S*H had on someone's career belongs at their bio and discussion about things like actors agreeing to sign onto a show belong at the main page, at the character list, or at season or episode articles. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 23:50, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The editor below me makes some good points. I didn't realise M*A*S*H had multiple characters to an actor and vice versa, and though this is not something that happens to the extent it does on The Simpsons, it counts for something. The first source given below does indeed cover guest actors on the show, though the second is more a directory of episode details that would belong on season or episode pages, if anywhere. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 09:35, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for taking the time to review my comments and reevaluate your position. I appreciate it. Cunard (talk) 06:21, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It is incorrect that "The Simpsons is quite a different case, because there actors are playing multiple roles." Although self-published, this article is a good summary of how different actors played different characters and sometimes the same characters were played by different characters:
As every M*A*S*H fan knows, Harry Morgan played two different characters on the series. In the Season Three episode “The General Flipped at Dawn” he played the eccentric Maj. Gen. Bartford Hamilton Steele, a role he won an Emmy for. But he is better known as Colonel Potter, who took over as commander of the 4077th in the Season Four premiere. Other actors who played more than one character — not counting the many actresses who were credited as more than one nurse — include Clyde Kusatsu, John Orchard and Jerry Fujikawa.
What about the other way around? Characters who were played by more than one actor or actress? The most famous is probably Father Mulcahy. George Morgan appeared as Father Mulcahy in “M*A*S*H – The Pilot” but beginning with the third episode of the series, “Requiem For A Lightweight,” the role was played by William Christopher.
[Discussion about other characters who were played by more than one actor]
This article from The Independent and this article in The New York Times verify the information in the self-published source about George Morgan playing two characters in M*A*S*H.
I maintain that an expanded and polished List of M*A*S*H cast members article would be similar to the featured list List of The Simpsons cast members in presenting background information about the cast, what characters they played, and the cast's awards and nominations.
Cunard (talk) 07:37, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Regarding "The sources above discuss only the main cast, not every actor who ever appeared on the show", you are correct. I did not present any sources about people who were not part of the main cast. Here are two such sources now:
1. Sherman, Dale (2016). M.A.S.H. FAQ: Everything Left to Know About the Best Care Anywhere. Milwaukee, Wisconsin: Hal Leonard Corporation. ISBN 978-1-49506-379-4. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  Chapter 20 of the book is titled "I Don't Know Your Name, But … Thirty Famous Guest Appearances". The book notes:
  Not surprisingly, for a show that lasted eleven years and considered a good notch in the belt for up-and-coming actors, MASH had a lot of guest stars that had been or would go on to big things in both television and movies. No doubt, there are even more than thirty for such a list, but in order to end up not spending half the book discussing the many others, below is a good sampling; showing thirty individuals that viewers remember, or are surprised to see once again when watching reruns of the program.
  Here are some of the 30 guest appearances:
2. Wittebols, James H. (2003) [1998]. Watching M*A*S*H, Watching America: A Social History of the 1972-1983 Television Series. Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland & Company. ISBN 0-7864-1701-3. Retrieved 2018-09-04.
  The book's episode guide beginning on page 161 discusses the cast and crew for each season as well as information about every show including lists of guest stars.
  For example, page 234 lists the guest stars for three different episodes. For the A Holy Mess episode, it lists the guest stars Cyril O'Reilly, David Graf, Val Bisoglio, Ray Goldman, Ed Ramirez, Bill Snider, Dennis Troy, Leland Sun, and Kip Curtis.
Wikipedia:Notability#Stand-alone lists says:
The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable, although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles.
Since there are a large number of guest actors, editors may choose to omit those that are not notable from this list. Or editors can decide by consensus to reverse the decision of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of M*A*S*H guest stars and move information about guest actors to a new article at List of M*A*S*H guest stars. This can be discussed outside of AfD and is not a policy-based reason for deletion of this list.
Cunard (talk) 07:37, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. It is easily justified as a navigation aid. It is complementary to List of M*A*S*H characters without sharing the WP:WAF issues with that page. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:14, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

List of M*A*S*H cast members

List of MAS*H cast members