Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of KTVX translators

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. W.marsh 17:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of KTVX translators[edit]

Non-notable. WP:NOT a directory. See also this discussion. I could be persuaded to change my mind if more info is provided on the subject, though.

Delete There is no benefit is copying a long directory of TV repeaters out of an FCC database to make a Wikipedia article. Just list the FCC database as a "See Also" in an article on the station. There is a lack of multiple sources, and even the FCC list is a mere directory listiong. Edison 22:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I flagged this as {{mergeinto}} KTVX just a few days ago; this AFD nomination seems to have replaced that tag. You're correct that there's no particularly compelling reason for this to have its own article separately from the existing article on the television station proper — but it's perfectly legitimate content to have in the television station's main article. I've already expressed my opinion on the talk page that this should be merged rather than deleted. I don't mean to suggest that my opinion should be prioritized over anyone else's, but Wikipedia:Merging and moving pages does indicate that a merge proposal should be left open for at least two weeks, and I only just flagged this five days ago. Therefore, I would request that this AFD be suspended until January 31 so that the merge debate can run its proper procedural course. I have no objection to deleting it if that's the consensus after the proper two weeks have ended. Bearcat 23:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I put the merge tag back. I had removed it because I thought a deletion discussion would impact the article more, and I didn't wait for the merge discussion to run its course because it was heading towards a unanimous merge vote. I haven't seen any reason to keep the info, save for interesting translators in Nevada. Xiner (talk, email) 04:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - of the same class are KBYU-TV/List of KBYU-TV translators, KSTU/List of KSTU translators, KJZZ-TV/List of KJZZ-TV translators, KUCW/List of KUCW translators, KSL-TV/List of KSL-TV translators, and KUED/List of KUED translators. All of these articles were made by User:Dhett who is active on Wikipedia. I left notice on his talk page. Whatever happens to this article should happen with all of them. Cool Hand Luke 09:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment (edited) I've listed all these pages and placed a link to this page per WP:IAR (i.e. no formal tags), so we'll be held up by dhett's absence only. Xiner (talk, email) 15:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete As I explained in the merge discussion, CVS doesn't list all the cities it does business in because it is trivia, which Wikipedia doesn't allow. This list is also very likely to be original research, and if it's not, then there is a published source that we can link to, instead of hosting the info ourselves. It'd be more authoritative, too. Even KTVX's own website doesn't have this list. Xiner (talk, email) 04:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - Thank you, Cool Hand, for bringing this to my attention. I am the author of all of these lists, so I will provide my defense. It has been customary to include a list of translators in each television article; however, the Salt Lake City television market is unique in that their primary stations have anywhere from 50 - 120 translator stations, as opposed to fewer than 25 translators in any other market. When I initially began adding the translators, it quickly became clear that the list was too unwieldy for inclusion in one article. I sought the advice of fellow members of WikiProject Television Stations and was advised that the best way to do this would be as a separate list that the main article would reference. I believe that it is appropriate to keep the list of translators, as is the custom for TV articles, and it is appropriate to keep it as a subarticle, as it was never meant to be a standalone article, but rather an adjunct to the main article. The data is authoritative, having come from the FCC, but is not in an easily referenced source in its original form. Also, while KTVX doesn't provide a list of translators on its website, the other stations do. The FCC data is self-reported, but it is not advertising; it is instead a mandatory report as part of their license renewal application. I welcome input on how to better present this information, but firmly believe that the information is relevant and notable, but too bulky for inclusion in the main article. dhett (talk • contribs) 05:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, I will not have access to an Internet connection for the next couple of days and so, will not be available to respond to questions, so although AfDs are generally resolved after five days, I request a couple of additional days so that I can answer questions before any action is taken in this matter. Thank you. dhett (talk • contribs) 06:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment dhett has expressed difficulty in reaching the internet for the next couple of days, so we should wait, but here are my thoughts right now. 1. Even if the data are kept, they should be trimmed to a format like City, State (callsign), since the channel number is the same as that in the callsign, with the text linking to the corresponding FCC page. 2. I still don't see why we can't just mention a few of the more notable translators -- if a store has only a couple of locations, then we would list all the locations, but if it has over 100, then no one would argue we should keep them all. 3. If other stations' websites list their translators, then we should simply link to that. If they don't, see point 2 (someone could also set up a webpage or publish the info somehow). Xiner (talk, email) 15:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In the rampant spirit of WP:IAR, I second Bearcat's suggestion to suspend AfD for at least 5 days. This will probably permanantly table the deletion, but if—upon closer inspection and discussion at Talk:KTVX#Merge notice—we determine that the sub-articles irredeemably violates policy on original research or something else, we can reopen this AfD. Cool Hand Luke 01:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We have most if not all of the facts available, which are not much different from how they appeared before the nomination, and it's not clear that this discussion is going anywhere anyway. I thus would like this deletion process to take its course. We can always extend a discussion. I also believe the merge discussion can take place simultaneously. I just want everyone to contribute their thoughts, because before this deletion discussion no one was saying much at all, as evident in that merge discussion. Xiner (talk, email) 01:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It should also be noted that one centralized deletion nomination is a better place to discuss this issue than having various separate merge discussions. Xiner (talk, email) 04:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- ...which is why I left notes on all of the pages directing them to the centralized merge discussion that was already in progress. It's not clear to me whether this violates wikipedia policy or not, and I think discussion will be served if we remove the pressure of imminent deletion, especially since the primary contributing editor will have limited access the next few days. I would like to keep the deletion option open, but if no other editors agree, I'll have to vote keep to cement the fact that there is no consensus. Let's try a good faith effort at consensus first, eh? Cool Hand Luke 22:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Cool Hand Luke, I've said more than once that this discussion should be extended. I'm not trying to rush this through, only saying that it's attracted more posts than the merge discussion, which had three participants I think. Xiner (talk, email) 22:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - There was a pageful of commentary on the notice before you nominated it (which, by the way, was before anyone thought to ask the original contributer about it). I don't mind the nomination, but in light of the good faith and effort that User:Dhett put into properly presenting this info (by asking the relevant wikiproject)—data which is always included for other stations as a matter of policy—I think that the only decent response is to ask for this nomination to be withdrawn. I accordingly vote keep and look forward to discussing this further on the talk page. Cool Hand Luke 19:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - This deletion nomination was created at 2007-01-22T17:07:51. At that point, the merge discussion looked like this. I don't think it is fair to say that I acted anything but prudently in this matter. I was in fact taking up your suggestion of AfD. Xiner (talk, email) 19:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        As I specifically said, I don't blame you for nominating it. do think the original reasons for the nomination have evaporated though. I do blame you for turning this into a personal crusade. Cool Hand Luke 21:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - I also believe now that the TV WikiProject had erred in their advisement to Dhett, which resulted in his continuing to work on the admirably long lists. No one would argue that CVS Corporation should keep a subpage of the locations of all its stores. I'm sorry I'm proposing for deletion someone else's work, but though I don't expect this particular nomination to succeed, my question about the encyclopedic value of the lists was what finally made anyone care about them. Xiner (talk, email) 19:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this whole collection of articles. Merge the info. Shaundakulbara 05:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep with Clean-up. I'd be happy to assist with the clean-up. I believe this list is useful; someone who was looking for this information should be able to find it, without having to query endlessly at a government database. People often cite WP:NOT for these types of lists, but my own encyclopedia at home (World Book) contains many lists, albeit not specifically for lists of translators. I'm not sure why there's a need to link to each query, and I think the tables can be reduced (or at least prettified by removing the ALLCAPS). Many Wikipedia TV station articles have information on translators, as this was a compromise between those who wanted no mention of translators and those who wanted full articles on each translator. In the case of Utah station translators, this information becomes huge because Utah has only one market and is a rather large state. This article should ideally mention these facts in the article itself, with proper reference. Firsfron of Ronchester 20:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No one should come to Wikipedia expecting to find a translator. That's the TV dial's job. As for prettifying the list, I've offered a suggestion above. Xiner (talk, email) 20:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You still have a dial on your TV? Oh, man, your TV's gonna suck in 2009. ;) I often come to Wikipedia looking for archane stuff (usually old TV station history), and my TV's reception doesn't reach to Utah, but a researcher writing a book on television might well find this article a useful place to get started. I don't think deleting the list will make it any prettier, though. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was talking about this. Xiner (talk, email) 21:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given Dhett's source of this information, it would take an unusual view of original research to conclude that this page violates WP:OR. The fact that it's hard for a novice to navigate fcc queries shows that this tabulated data is quite useful. I don't want to dump 100 translators into all the Salt Lake TV station articles, but this information merits inclusion. The only question remaining is how to go about formatting it. The original subpage scheme seemed like a good compromise, but I think policy strongly frowns on it. Cool Hand Luke 21:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My main argument has always been that this is trivia, as indicated by the fact that not even the station's website mentions translators. And if other stations do list the info, we can simply link to that. Xiner (talk, email) 22:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I estimate that the Salt Lake City, Utah television market consists of around 2.5 million people, 2.3 million in Utah alone. Of those, only approximately 1.5 million live within range of the primary stations' broadcast signal. That means that the stations' translator network serves around a million people, or 40% of the market. That is hardly trivial. The stations' websites don't mention their history either; does that make the stations' history trivial also? No, translator information is relevant and encyclopedic; I think our challenge here is to find a better way to present it. Your suggestion above has a great deal of merit and is a good start. dhett (talk • contribs) 09:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May I suggest Wikisource or the Commons as a depository for this info, with a link from the article? Xiner (talk, email) 22:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is my understanding of WikiSource that this material would be quite inappropriate there, as Wikisource is dedicated to "exist to archive the free artistic and intellectual works created throughout history, and to present these publications in a faithful wiki version so that anyone may contribute added value to the collection." As these lists are neither artistic nor an "intellectual work" in most senses of the phrase, I don't think this material would last long there. Commons is supposed to be a repository of media files. Again, I'm not sure this list qualifies for that. Firsfron of Ronchester 23:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into station article. Do not keep. Vegaswikian 00:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I hope we understand that WikiProject Television Stations did not think this stuff is appropriate in the station article. Xiner (talk, email) 15:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Then Delete. If the wikiproject does not consider this information appropriate for the article then it is clearly not encyclopedic on its own. Vegaswikian 07:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's not exactly a true statement. The translators are appropriate in the station article, as they are in almost all other articles for stations with translators. The only reason these translators are in a separate subarticle is due to the size of the list - putting the translator list in the separate subarticle keeps the main article readable and of a manageable size. dhett (talk • contribs) 09:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question: KBYU and KUED provide the lists on their websites. Both are PBS member stations. What should we do we those? Xiner (talk, email) 15:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -- Other stations' pages have translator info available, thpugh usually on the same page as the article itself. The reason why the Utah stations have separate pages for translators is that there are so many translators on the air within the Salt Lake market -- which consists of all of Utah, plus portions of Wyoming, Nevada, Arizona and Idaho. If they're placed on the same page, the article gers too big and cluttered. Therefore, I'm for keeping them as they are now. -- azumanga 06:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment -- I'm back; was away longer than I'd expected to be. Naturally, I strongly disagree with comments that TV translator information is not encyclopedic. This is not a paper encyclopedia so there is no reason why the articles shouldn't include translators, as they are relevant. I also contend that Xiner's CVS Corporation analogy is not relevant here; television stations are not the same as drugstore chain (or any other corporate) franchises, as each station must be specifically licensed by the federal government and that no change can be made to any station without that change being specifically authorized and licensed. Also, these are not simply lists of locations; each station listed contains a link to the FCC website, which has further information about that translator, including its broadcast coverage area. None of the translators is any more important than the other, so listing only a handful is not feasable either. I do however appreciate Xiner's thoughtfulness in listing his ideas on how the article should be treated. His first idea, removing all information except city, state and calls could work using multiple columns in the article, thereby reducing the size of the information. As soon as I have opportunity, I will try that in my own user space. I believe it will be a reasonable compromise, and allow the lists to be merged back into the main article without making the main article unreadable. dhett (talk • contribs) 08:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, you should be able to fit a few translators in one row that way. As for FCC approval, CVS stores would have to abide by local zoning laws and acquire consumer agency licenses...I still don't think it's a big deal, but like I said, I think this will end up a discussion about how to merge the stuff. Xiner (talk, email) 17:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I have created a KTVX proof of concept article in my user space, putting into effect a suggestion by User:Xiner. This should allow all translators to be listed in the main article without making it unreadable or too large for dial-up connections. It should also be an effective compromise that will resolve both this AfD and the KTVX merge notice. Please review and comment under the merge notice - your feedback is greatly appreciated. dhett (talk • contribs) 07:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Compressing the data into a table doesn't actually help the page's size for download over dialup. In fact, the table html makes it bigger. It does help prevent the article from getting overwhelemed though, so I like it. Cool Hand Luke 17:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The comparison was actually between the example and just merging the existing table into the main article, not between the example and the main article without the translator info, but thanks for the feedback. dhett (talk • contribs) 22:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, I know, but rearranging the table doesn't save bandwidth. If you view source on the independant article, the table consumes about 26k, so dumping it into the article would add that much for those who care (really not a terrible amount anyway). The version you've arranged on your user space (prior to adding links, mind you) is 20k. Making the table wider and shorter won't save much bandwidth. Most of the savings if from abbreviating the verbose links. I wish I didn't say anything though, because your table is great—it won't overwhelm the article. I think download time is not an issue. It adds about two second to the article on dialup. Cool Hand Luke 03:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on dial-up at home and was able to access the test article pretty easily. No problem here. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.