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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. W.marsh 17:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of Italian American Medal of Honor recipients[edit]

List of Italian American Medal of Honor recipients (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Merge into List of Medal of Honor recipients. Typically wikipedia does not subdivide award-winners by their ethnicity, religion, or anything of the like. Intersections such as this are almost entirely trivia-based, of little encyclopedic value, or possibly purporting some type of agenda. A listing equivalent to WP:Overcategorization for narrow intersection, overlapping, and nn intersections by ethnicity. Divisions of award winners like this open up a can of worms that may become unmaintainable in the future. Bulldog123 04:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with your argument is that it applies to categories, not articles. Even if the Overcategorization guideline applied to this article, it would come under the ethnicity section of the guidelines. Even by that section of the guidelines, this list would be valid. But again, Overcategorization applies to categories, not articles.--Alabamaboy 16:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Non-notable intersections apply equally to lists, and no one has yet to provide any proof that it does pass as a notable intersection thats not just trivia per WP:NOT. You have just all said it does in your opinions and made some ambiguous unsubstantiated comments about Italian-American facing severe discrimination in the military. Bulldog123 16:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletions. -- Carom 05:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Article has no encyclopedic information above those on the individual MOH recipients' pages. Unlike List of Hispanic Medal of Honor recipients, though, I don't think there could be any encyclopedic information added. --Charlene 09:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Unsure what constitutes Italian-American in this context. 1st gen? both parents? 100%? TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom. Carlossuarez46 20:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. Along the lines of what I said at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Hispanic Medal of Honor recipients, this article details a vital aspect of U.S. military history. Merging the article is also not an option as doing so would remove useful context and information. The U.S. military has historically been made up of ethnic groups which it discriminated against or trivialized even as these groups were a vital part of the military's history. This article helps give context to this history.--Alabamaboy 11:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd love to know what kind of sources you have to support the contention that Italian-Americans were seriously discriminated against in the military to the point where this becomes a notable intersection. Bulldog123 16:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep Article needs some work but it's still notable. -凶 13:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Article does need work, but subject matter is worthy of own page. For example, sub-topic may be of some use to people researching on a specific ethnicity.; Murcielago 15:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • We don't create articles based on a minority's vested interest in the subject matter. The case is: neither of these pass WP:Overcategorization guideline on MORE THAN ONE account, which are often applied to evaluate lists too. That's it. Bulldog123 15:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Your assumption that this article is of interest only to members of a minority group is misplaced. Nevetheless, I just read WP:Overcategorization in detail, and am convinced that even if the Overcategorization guideline applied to this article (it does not), it would come under the ethnicity section of the guidelines (which others?), and even by that section of the guidelines, this list would be valid. Murcielago 21:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep From what I said at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Hispanic Medal of Honor recipients I would like to post links to List of African American Medal of Honor recipients, List of Native American Medal of Honor recipients and Puerto Rican recipients of the Medal of Honor in response to the comment "Typically wikipedia does not subdivide award-winners by their ethnicity, religion, or anything of the like". As for keeping this (and others of its ilk) due to the extensive, and documented, history of discrimination against Hispanics, African Americans, Italians and Native Americans in the armed forces, thus lists of people of these ethnic backgrounds whose ethnicity was overlooked in order to award them the MoH would be very useful to someone researching the relationships between ethnic groups in the US military, or something similar. SGGH speak! 15:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Using the exact same article series to counter my statement that "Typically wikipedia does not subdivide award-winners by their ethnicity, religion, or anything of the like" is ludicrous. Clearly, I didn't nominate all of them at once. Bulldog123 16:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Statements such as "history of discimination against Hispanics/Italians in the armed forces" are unsubstantiated by hardcore research. Your closing in on original research, with WP:NOT#SOAPBOX intentions. Wikipedia is not REVISIONIST. Bulldog123 15:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep per SGGH. Let's be a little more productive with these AfD's. --David Shankbone 15:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • What exactly do you mean by "more productive"? As in, following guideline, precedent, and making wikipedia look more like a professional encyclopedia than some guy's Italian-American pride webpage? If so I agree. The article is fine, one of the better made ones in terms of being tidy and I don't want to delete it, I want to merge it to a list of lists that don't get divided trivially like this. Bulldog123 16:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep, You are wrong in saying that Wikipedia would look less encyclopedic because of this list, on the contrary it makes it a much better and resourceful encyclopedia. I resent your use of words "some guy's Italian-American pride webpage?" This not an Italian-American pride webpage, this is a list of Italian-Americans who in some cases have made the ultimate sacrifice for their country and members of the Italian community have a right to know who they are. Tony the Marine 17:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • What do you mean "have a right to know who they are"? Are we hiding the fact that they're Italian-Americans? Every one of their articles has that category stamped right on it. Bulldog123 20:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep, for the reasons listed above--importance, historical, educational, and what SGGH wrote. --Beth C. 00:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Hopefully some admin discretion will follow at closing here. Despite all these "strong keeps" no one has yet to veryif this as a notable intersection in the same way that these users put much greater effort into showing List of Hispanic Medal of Honor recipients as possibly verifiable, where most of the keepers have originated from. Also absolutely no substantiation for statements such as "Italian-Americans were discriminated against in the military and this qualifies the list as notable." Bulldog123 06:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the article's talk page for citations that show that this is a notable intersection. — ERcheck (talk) 17:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately all you have given us is likely the source of this list, which should be expected because otherwise we would have to assume original research, and a mirror of the original list. The strongest suit you have is the Exhibit but this is at best what I mentioned 20 times before: exhibitions for ethnic-pride or ethnic-awareness gatherings. Such exist for any diaspora, and a frequent thing to do would have exhibition such as this. IE: Black History Month we talk about irrelevant intersections between African-American and some occupation all the time. Even permanent pages exist online African-American mathematicians. However, Category:African-American mathematicians did not pass notability of the intersection on wikipedia. Your arguments for discrimination work loosely with Hispanics but there is absolutely no notability of intersection with Italian-Americans. And applying it here ends up in a faulty cross-over. Bulldog123 21:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see: During World War II, Italians Americans were taken into custody and interned b/c of their ethnicity[1][[2]]. In addition, as it states at Italian_American#History_2, In the 1890-1920 period Italian Americans were often stereotyped as being "violent" and "controlled by the Mafia". [3] In the 1920s, many Americans used the Sacco and Vanzetti trial, in which two Italian anarchists were sentenced to death, to denounce Italian immigrants as anarchists and criminals. During the 1800s and early 20th century, Italian Americans were the one of the most likely groups to be lynched. In 1891, eleven Italian immigrants in New Orleans were lynched due to their ethnicity and the suspicion of Italians being involved in the Mafia. This was the largest mass lynching in US history. Sounds like Italian Americans were discriminated against, to say the least.--Alabamaboy 01:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sorry, your argument is again very faulty. First your long italicized comment has absolutely nothing to do with the military and applies similarly to Irish and many other European immigrants (Eastern Europeans, Jews, etc...). And most importantly, why on earth do you think the first comment HAPPENED in World War II....hmm...maybe Fascist Italy being at war with the US? And so list of Japanese American Medal of Honor recipients is good because of Manzanar? Sorry, but I'm getting tired of pointing out how these arguments are being used to confuse the issue instead of actually reply to it. The question wasn't "were Italian-Americans every discriminated? it was were Italian-Americans every discriminated against in the military to merit at list like this? Bulldog123 02:19, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Italian Americans experienced some discrimination in the military, as evidenced in the book Italian Americans in World War II [3]. No, they were not discriminated against the same as Hispanics or African Americans. But considering how Italian American were treated in the US during the war[4] and before, their military history is therefore notable and of interest. But being discriminated against isn't the only reason to keep a list like this. The larger problem with your argument is, as stated before, that WP:Overcategorization doesn't apply to articles. That entire guidelines focuses on categories. By your argument, African American literature shouldn't exist as an article because it's merely a subset of American literature. But the truth is both articles are valid and notable because the greater culture has created the entity of Black literature being a unique subset of American literature. The same with this article list. The list focuses on Italian American medal of honor winners, a subset of American medal of honor winners that the greater culture has created. If you want to delete this article, first convince historians, authors, and the rest of the world that Italian American medal of honor winners isn't a valid subset.--Alabamaboy 12:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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