Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of English-speaking Quebecers

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 08:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of English-speaking Quebecers[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

List of English-speaking Quebecers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Does not meet WP:NLIST; there's a difference between Anglophones in Quebec and 'people in Quebec who can/do speak English'. To me, this is the difference between 'hockey players from Quebec' and 'people from Quebec who can/do play hockey'. I don't see this as a cohesive group of people per the terms of NLIST ("topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources") compared to Anglo-Quebecois or Anglophones in Quebec. It's also not clear what the criteria for "English-speaking" is - should both Justin and Pierre Elliott Trudeau be on this list? Even Quebecer is vague - John Abbott was born in Lower Canada, Samuel Bronfman was from Bessarabia and lived for many years in Manitoba, etc. The topic isn't specific enough to warrant a list under this title. Relatedly, we do not have articles for 'List of French-speaking Albertans' and such from other provinces. Kazamzam (talk) 04:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments:
  1. Would it make any difference if the article was renamed "List of Anglophone Quebecers"?
  2. We have a long article on this group: English-speaking Quebecers. With 47 footnotes and 20 other references (including a book on the subject[1]), the topic is certainly notable.
--A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 05:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: as outlined by OP, this list doesn't even make it clear what its inclusion criteria are. Right now, it seems to be a list of people from Quebec who don't have French last names, maybe? Though even that isn't clear, as some of them apparently are born outside Quebec. So what do we even count here as Quebecois? Does being born outside Quebec with parents from Quebec count? Do you have to have to have a registered address there? Also, apparently more than half the people in Quebec speak English, so is this really that notable? And lastly, how do we know this is even correct? Sure, we could check whether, say, and actor from the list speaks English in their films, but that's just original research. Cortador (talk) 11:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you think that this is unclear in its criteria, just read the discussions of the categories such as Category:Anglo-Quebecers and Category:Anglophone Quebecers and Category:Anglophone Quebec people. ☺ Are you in, Mr Serjeant Buzfuz, Kawnhr, and Nyttend? You could all probably help here. Uncle G (talk) 11:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Seems to fail WP:NLIST. Owen× ☎ 11:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The title is referencing anyone who doesn't identify as a French-language native from Quebec; Canada has historically had two groups, the English everywhere else but Quebec, and the French population from Quebec (and to a lesser extent, in the rest of the country that are descendants from the original French settlers) that are the reason the country is setup as it is. The title refers to individuals from the first group that live among the second group, inside Quebec. Oaktree b (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: List is fine, needs some sort of an introduction to explain what is meant by the title perhaps. Canada was founded by French settlers, who were then conquered by the English and setup the country as we have it now, with the English group being larger than the French group (ignoring the Native population and everyone who doesn't fit in either category, but that's a discussion for another time...) Oaktree b (talk) 15:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Oaktree b - agree with the above explanation about Franco and Anglo history in Quebec and ROC, but for the non-Canadians among us, that's unclear from the title. I would at minimum change the name to Anglophone to clarify that it's not referring to 'anyone in Quebec who can speak English' because that would be an enormous list of minimal value. And the meaning of "Quebecer" is similarly vague: the Bronfman family was in Manitoba for decades, John Abbott was born before "Quebec" was the entity that it is today, author Sarah Bernstein lives in Scotland, Dov Charney flew the coop to the US as a high school student, and so on. @Cortador is right in pointing out that what counts as Quebecois is unclear. Kazamzam (talk) 15:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Using "Quebecois" in referring to English-speaking Quebecers is not helpful in this context, as that word can mean people from Quebec, but it can also mean those Quebecers of traditional French-Canadian heritage. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mr Serjeant Buzfuz as someone who is Quebecois in both senses of the word, I am familiar with both meanings. It's an imprecise term, as is the word Quebecer itself. My issue with this point, and with your reply below (almost all of which I agree with) is that what makes an "English-speaking" "Quebecer" is so vague that this list could incorporate thousands of people who do not have much in common beyond a linguistic characteristic that is non-specific (i.e. immigrant English-speaking Quebecers for whom English is a second, third, or fourth language vs. the well-established Montreal Jewish community vs. First Nations groups) and a residence status that is fluid. Are we going to update the list every time someone on here moves? When does someone start and stop being a Quebecer and who gets to make that call?
    I agree that as a constitutionally reocgnised group there is sufficient notability; my argument is about the lack of coherence as a group in the current form that this list is in. Kazamzam (talk) 18:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the comments. I agree it's a fluid concept, but I don't think that means it's unworkable. If we treat it solely as a combination of English as primary language, and residence in Quebec, and get away from the idea of it being an ethnic identity, then it becomes more workable. An "English-speaking Quebecer" is someone whose primary language is English, and whose residence is in Quebec. If they leave Quebec, they're no longer an English-speaking Quebecer. For example, retired Supreme Court judge Ian Binnie was born in Quebec and spent his early years there, but moved to Toronto where he became highly notable. I wouldn't treat him as an English-speaking Quebecer, because he's notable for his legal career in Ontario. Again, there may be edge cases, where someone who speaks English has spent most of their life in Quebec and is notable for their working life in Quebec, but retires to Florida. :) But we don't throw out a concept because there are some judgment calls. From the perspective of notability, I would find it contradictory to have an article on English-speaking Quebecers that meets notability standards, but then say that it's not possible to have a list of English-speaking Quebecers. How can that be reconciled? I think we have to accept that it is a fluid concept, but I don't think that means the list is unworkable. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 15:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and rename to “List of anglophone Quebecers”. From a policy perspective, this list meets WP:NLIST: the topic is notable and the list entries are verifiable by blue links. Deletion ≠ cleanup.
The article needs improvement by better defining the criteria and perhaps purging a few members after this is done. The list might also address some of the ambiguities noted above by breaking into sections:
    • Anglophones from Quebec now living elsewhere
    • Anglophones now living in Quebec from other places
    • Native anglophone Quebecers
I think this list is as much about an ethnic identity as it is about language skills. —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 16:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: (1) The existence of an article on English-speaking Quebecers, with numerous cites, demonstrates that this is a notable topic. A list of English-speaking Quebecers is consistent with that article. (2) "Anglophone" means "English-speaking". See the Google search of dictionaries for "Anglophone". Changing the list to "Anglophone Quebecers" does not add anything. (3) "Anglophone Quebecer" is not an ethnic category, but a linguistic one. Immigrants from non-English speaking countries can be English-speaking Quebecers. (4) The English-speaking linguistic minority in Quebec has constitutional recognition. Section 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867 gives them the right to speak English in the courts and the legislature, regardless of their ability to speak French. Members of the English-speaking linguistic minority in Quebec also have educational rights, to have their children educated in English, at public expense, under s. 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As a constitutionally recognised linguistic minority, they are a notable feature of Canada's political and cultural arrangements. (5) Since this is a linguistic characteristic, not an ethnic one, it doesn't matter if someone was born outside Quebec, like the Bronfman example. If an English-speaking Canadian moves to Quebec from another province, they become an English-speaking Quebecer. As well, if an English-speaking person leaves Quebec permanently, they are no longer an English-speaking Quebecer, since it's not an ethnicity. It's based on residence. (6) There will always be edge cases, such as the Trudeaus. The existence of a difficult-to-classify example doesn't mean the concept should be thrown out. (7) For someone like Abbott, my rule of thumb when I'm doing biography articles is that if a person was living in Quebec after it came into existence in 1867, they are a Quebecer. Again, the existence of a difficult case doesn't negate the concept entirely. (8) There is a List of Franco-Ontarians, a linguistic minority living in Ontario. It makes sense to have a similar list of the English-speaking minority in Quebec. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 17:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Was typing up a longer response but Serjeant Buzfuz beat me to it. But the short version is that "English-speaking Quebecer" is a linguistic community, which is why the rules of inclusion are fuzzy, but it is nonetheless a notable group of people (which is why there is a parent article on it already). Perhaps the list could do with some clean-up (I haven't looked closely), but AfD isn't the place for that. — Kawnhr (talk) 18:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, one option would be to put clearer requirements into the list description; perhaps a statement that the list only includes residents of Quebec for whom English is the first language learnt and still understood, which is one of the definitions of a rights-holder under s. 23 of the Charter. Could also put in a requirement that it only includes English-speaking Quebecers who were active post 1867. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 01:01, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    On reflection, that test of "1st learnt and still understood" may be too strict, as it wouldn't include individuals who have a different mother tongue, but use English as their primary language in Quebec. Some immigrants, for example, may have a different mother tongue but use English primarily. Perhaps a requirement that "English is the primary language used by the individual"? Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 15:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    And, thinking about it more after my reply just now to @Kazamzam: perhaps a third requirement: that they are notable for their careers in Quebec. That eliminates people like Justice Binnie, who were born in Quebec, but are notable for their career in another province (in his case Ontario). Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 16:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Similarly, looking at the "B" section, in addition to Binnie, I would delete Saul Bellow. Born in Quebec, but moved to the US at age 9, and is notable for his literary career in the US. Those are just a couple of examples. If we were to put clear criteria on the list, there would have to be a clean-up crew. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 16:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Still cruising the "B" section, I would keep Scotty Bowman. By the nature of his job, he's moved around North America a lot, and now lives in Florida, but his claim to notability as an English-speaking Quebecer is that he coached the Habs to four Stanley Cups. Can't get much more Quebec-notabilty than that! :) Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 17:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mr Serjeant Buzfuz - this is great stuff but there have been zero edits on the article or its talk page in the past 3 days at this point, and it is still unreferenced from October 2007 (this pains me physically). Without the changes you've proposed, we run back to the previous problem(s) of the list being too unspecific in the definitions of both its major terms and potentially falling afoul of WP:NLIST. Do you want to get this dialogue started on the talk page and we can close the AfD + make the necessary changes? Kazamzam (talk) 05:21, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Glad we're reaching a consensus. I've taken your suggestion and started a discussion on the Talk page for the List article. Comments welcome. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 14:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I've now gone through the list and deleted a lot of individuals who did not have any clear connection to Quebec other than birth and education, but career elsewhere. I've also listed several "edge" cases on the Talk page. I would appreciate any comments on the proposed criteria for inclusion, and the edge cases, which editors may have. I think with those deletions, and the proposed criteria for inclusion, the list meets the criteria to continue as a list. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 18:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_English-speaking_Quebecers&oldid=1188579075"