Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Argentine football rivalries

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was nom withdrawn -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Argentine football rivalries[edit]

I belive that this is an unreferenced, indiscriminate list, and there is no indication as to why these particular football rivalries are notable. Any relevant content is already covered by the well-established Major football rivalries article; if notable content is not covered, then it perhaps should be. Giant Snowman 01:46, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages for exactly the same reason:

Giant Snowman 01:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. Giant Snowman 01:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - (As the editor that removed the Proposed deletion from the five pages) I believe that being unreferenced is not a valid reason for deletion, and that Football rivalries in Argentina‎ is partially referenced anyway. That proding and then AfDing a number of non-British lists and leaving Local derbies in the United Kingdom looks like anglo-centrism. That much of the content of these articles is not covered by the Major football rivalries article (which seems to less descriminate than the proposed articles, having no definition of "major" and no inclusion criteria at all, not even presumed geographic location) and would be deleted. That sourced lists by nationality with clear incusion criteria (such as must have been played between fully professional teams from said country) would be consistent with WP:LIST and useful to the encyclopaedia by providing better information on football rivalries doing so in more detail in a more structured format than the Major football rivalries article (by nationality, rather than in alphabetical order by continent on a POV list without inclusion criteria) allowing the reader to learn about rivalries that are played between clubs that have articles but for which no article about their rivalry exists. For navigation because lists such as these are a better navigational tool than a category because they give an overview of the rivalries and helps the reader to determine which are the most "important" or "relevant" to them for development because they allow the reader/editor to see which derbies and teams already have their own primary article an which don't and to develop the missing ones.King of the North East 02:17, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I said on the talk page of the nominated article, the reason I haven't nominated the UK article – and I did consider doing so – is because it doesn't have any of the problems that the others do; namely, it is organised, discriminate and well referenced. None of the five I have nominated for deletion meet ANY of these three criteria. Giant Snowman 02:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This looks like an admission that you believe that these articles could be kept if sufficiently improved, with better organisation and references, if this is the case perhaps exploring some of the options at Alternatives to deletion such as tagging the articles with {{cleanup}}, {{wikify}} and {{unreferenced}} / {{refimprove}} or even by making improvements to the articles yourself would have been better. I say this because two of your given reasons for deletion (unreferenced and disorganised) are included in Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions and the Major football rivalries article seems to be less discriminate than the proposed articles. The debate should be about whether the concept of football rivalries by nationality articles are consistent with wikipedia policy, not a judgement of how good or bad specific articles are in terms of references/organisation. King of the North East 02:33, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Three of the articles have already been tagged for improvement/references, but no effort has been made to do so. However, if you can make a promise (cheesy as that sounds) that you will undertake to improve the articles to the standard of Local derbies in the United Kingdom or Football rivalries in Argentina‎ (which, upon a review of the page, is referenced and explains what makes the rivalries it details notable, and so I am removing it from this nomination), then I am happy to withdraw the nomination for now. Giant Snowman 02:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Erm, I just tagged them half an hour ago, how quikly am I expected to work? I can't promise to make such improvements immediately since I already have a huge list of projects to work on, I have commitments outside Wikipedia and the onus should not just be on me to improve these articles. King of the North East 02:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you tagged them? In that case, ignore me. But to be honest, I still have my doubts about the uses of seperate, country-specific lists. For example, France only has three seperate articles - listed in Category:French football derbies - and none of those articles are referenced either. I'm going to wait until the morning before deciding to withdraw or not, to allow input in the debate from other editors and WP:FOOTBALL members, and to see what a vague consenus is. Giant Snowman 02:55, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I personally feel that the major football rivalries article is bloated (122kb), POV (no definition of "major") and clearly anglo-centric, because of its inclusion of English lower league rivalries such as Bristol Rovers vs Bristol City and ommission of hugely important rivalries (from an Argentine perspective) such as Rosario Central vs Newell's Old Boys (9 national championships between them). It is too long and indescriminate and should be broken up by region/nationality (as per the rule of thumb guide at Wikipedia:Article size) leaving a list of only the truly major derbies, say between teams that have at least both won a national league championship). King of the North East 03:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, you've persuaded me, I withdraw the nomination. Do I need to do anything or will a helpful admin pop along & close it for me? Giant Snowman 12:00, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - seems fair enough to separate football rivalries by the nation or league that the rivalries are based in. Aside from the size aspect, rivalries in some countries have different aspects to others (eg the sectarianism issues in Scotland, or the political background to some of the rivalries in Spain).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmorrison230582 (talk • contribs)
Speedy close Nomination withdrawn. Mandsford (talk) 14:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.