Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lionel Blackman

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 23:33, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lionel Blackman[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

The article is about a Lib Dem PPC in the upcoming general election, and by the looks of things is no more notable than any other PPC who may be standing. The article also seems to be biased towards the LibDems. I propose that the article be deleted and only recreated if Mr. Blackman gains any further notability. Cooltrainer Hugh (talk) 02:33, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The focus of the article appears to be on his LibDem PPC status. He is nevertheless a leading UK human rights lawyer and as the article states, tucked away at the bottom, Chairman of Solicitors International Human Rights Group. His "leading UK human rights lawyer" status is endorsed by Doughty Street Chambers who should be considered a reasonable authority on the subject [1] Opbeith (talk) 12:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that "by the looks of things is no more notable than" is a poor basis for proposing deletions. If the proposer is unable to do the very little research that reveals something more significant they might consider their time would be better spent on contructive rather than destructive effort. There's absolutely nothing to stop the proposer from revising the article to focus its content on the more notable aspects of the subject's career. Opbeith (talk) 13:05, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I note that at his User page the proposer describes himself as living in Surrey and a supporter of the Conservative Party. Heigh-ho. Opbeith (talk) 13:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've revised the article myself. It was probably pointless suggesting that a local Tory might consider doing it (to be clear I'm not a LibDem and I don't live anywhere near the constituency and nor do I have any connection with Lionel Blackman). Opbeith (talk) 13:46, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Esher and Walton (UK Parliament constituency). Blackman seems far less notable than is being suggested above. A search of Google News archives shows that almost all of the references to "Lionel Blackman" are about a Florida psychiatrist. Most of the few stories I come up with about the British solicitor are passing references to him as the lawyer defending a former soldier in a case that became a minor cause celebre [2] [3] [4]. The sources provided in the article right now are little more than press releases, and overall I'm just not seeing "significant coverage" of Blackman. Per a recent consensus we've revised the guidelines at WP:POLITICIAN to say "in the case of candidates for political office who do not meet this guideline, the general rule is to redirect to an appropriate page covering the election or political office sought in lieu of deletion." I don't think Blackman has attained sufficient notability for an article, and since he is only a candidate a redirect to Esher and Walton (UK Parliament constituency) (or to a specific article on that local election if we ever get it) seems the appropriate choice right now. As a side note, and not to be all crystal ballish, given the recent voting trends in this constituency it seems almost impossible that Blackman will win this election. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:17, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be silly. Opbeith (talk) 18:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I assure you I'm being quite serious, and there's nothing fatuous in my comment above as you suggest in your edit summary. You're welcome to disagree with my rationale, of course, but there's no reason to belittle it, particularly since it's clearly a strong argument per our existing guidelines. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, that was my immediate response, I was in the middle of keying some more as you replied. What have Florida psychiatrists and the gun case to do with the substance of his HR work with SIHRG and Justice for Colombia campaign? That's more significant than the so-far non-event of him being a PPC. The range of Google references is in itself meaningless, it's the relevant content that's significant. I give up.Opbeith (talk) 18:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, that was my reply I was describing as pointless, not your. Opbeith (talk) 18:39, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why you are getting so frustrated here, it's pretty normal for people to disagree at AfD. Clearly I mentioned the Florida psychiatrist because it shows that while a lot of Gnews hits come up for "Lionel Blackman," 95% of them are not the person we are talking about. What I did find (cited above) are only brief mentions of him relating to one particular case. These are exactly the kind of points we routinely bring up in AfDs, there's nothing odd about it. I understand he has done some human rights work, but that does not automatically make him notable (he's mentioned as one of a number of lawyers who were involved with Columbia, and there are literally tens of thousands of lawyers who have received brief mentions online in similar situations). The general guideline is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" (i.e. the "range of Google references" can actually be quite important). Do you see "significant coverage" anywhere? Without that Blackman is not notable enough for an article, and we should redirect per WP:POLITICIAN. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:49, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I get frustrated by the environment of unwillingness to allow information to be available and in its most usable form. I understand the purpose of Wikipedia rules as supporting a non-exploitative and adequately verifiable structure of information provision. But the fact that the Florida psychiatrist either warrants his own article or is a smart self-publicist is irrelevant. Unless I'm local, it's Blackman's international human rights activities that are the more likely reason I'm going to be interested in finding out about him, and specifically as Chair of SIHRG. If I'm interested in UK lawyers' involvement in human rights work in Pakistan or Colombia or Philippines or Bangladesh or Mexico or Zimbabwe the history of the Esher and Walton constituency or the candidates for an election which hasn't even been called yet are actually going to get in my way in finding out what I want to know.

SIHRG was set up by Geoffrey Bindman and Michael Ellman (previous Chair when LB was Vice-Chair), it has Bindman, Clive Stafford Smith and Phil Shiner as patrons, who I presume as patrons might be considered as more than mere agents of notability contagion. SIHRG works closely with Amnesty International, Justice for Colombia (which is the NGO set up to deal with its Colombia concerns by the British Trades Union Congress), Commonwealth Lawyers Association, Public Interest Lawyers, Garden Court Chambers, etc. Look at the SIHRG activities in the Bulletins downloadable at http://sites.google.com/a/sihrg.org/solicitors-international-human-rights-group/october-2008-bulletin. - they have speakers at meetings from the top of the humanitarian law profession including Shami Chakrabarti, Richard Gifford, Prof. Bill Bowring, Gugulethu Moyo, Geraldine van Buren, evidence of professional respect rather than contagion.

Does notability boil down to Google hits? If so, so be it, that's the way it is, but it's frustrating. Blackman is hardly notable as an untested PPC so if his HR activities are irrelevant then might as well go for Delete rather than Esher and Walton. (Incidentally with the previous LibDem candidate getting 30 per cent of the vote last time and the current political climate it's hardly "impossible" that he may get elected, but that's another matter). Opbeith (talk) 20:39, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your points above suggest to me that what we need is an article on Solicitors International Human Rights Group, and if anything Blackman should be discussed/redirected to there. If the group is notable as you say, it makes more sense to have an article about it rather than the person who happens to be the chairman at the moment and who is otherwise not especially notable. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So if a groups (excuse the absence of apostrophes, Wikipedia is going to and fro between allowing me to use them and doing odd things when I try) notable - and Im not pre-empting that issue - then the person responsible for it conducting its notable activities is only notable if he or she gets enough publicity for doing so? This seems to be imposing a rather skewed notion of notability, that might be better expressed as "noticeability". I dont see any reason for not doing an article on SIHRG but Im certainly not going to start one and have someone jumping on me to delete it because I havent got it perfect. Opbeith (talk) 21:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The answer to your first question is basically yes, though it might depend somewhat on the group. Our general notability guideline is here, and that's the overarching rule for just about any topic. If a person is not getting significant coverage in reliable source, we do not generally have an article about them. It's pretty simple, and is not so much about "publicity" or "noticeability" but simply about whether secondary sources have talked about the person or topic in question or not. There are thousands upon thousands of notable organizations and businesses, and their leaders (CEO, Director, chairman, president, etc.) usually change quite frequently. It would be horribly ill-advised to have articles about all of these folks, many of which would simply say "she was the president of ______, until she resigned" assuming the person was not discussed to some significant degree in reliable sources, as seems to be the case here. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's (apostrophes working again) not an unreasonable argument/explanation, though I can't say I'm convinced when the outcome is the loss of information that's useful and made accessible by Wikipedia - sum of human knowledge in one place. The rules are essentially there to prevent abuse and inaccuracy. If an organisation is notable, it's not unreasonable to assume the notability of someone deemed suitable or with the authority to become the head of it, however often the leader may change, in the absence of a quota for the absolute number of articles or volume of content. So in the end, more Pikachu and notable porn stars - notability does seem to boil down to noticeability, which is why it's not worth trying to create serious articles that have to be defended beyond the amount of time they're worth. But anyhow, we're on to arguments of principle. Opbeith (talk) 22:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JForget 00:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete none of the references establish his notability under our rules. He clearly fails WP:POLITICIAN. Valenciano (talk) 18:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Plenty of references, but all but one either fail to qualify as reliable sources, or relate to his council seat and candidacy as an MP, which doesn't count. That leaves a mention of him representing a case that got the attention of Channel 4 news. I found a few other news stories where he was mentioned as a representative in a legal case, but nothing about the person himself. Falls a long way short of substantial coverage in multiple reliable sources. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 21:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure how Legal Action Group, the most prominent UK human rights law practices, Commonwealth Lawyers Association, an NGO representing 40 UK trades unions, etc., are all assumed to be unreliable sources, assumed to be willing to associate themselves with and report / describe someone passing himself off as more important than he is? The Clarke case was widely reported - it got rather more than just "the attention of Channel 4 News", though that's hardly insignificant in itself, but how many references are necessary? That got the widely reported publicity but it was the Morgans case that makes Jackman more significant - http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/ld199900/ldjudgmt/jd000217/morgan-3.htm But that only describes his intervention in a significant role in a significant case, of course it says "nothing about the person himself". Clearly moderate notability is not imputable on the basis of a body of evidence - it has to be as explicit as a Playboy centrefold (explicit, that is, in the sense that as I understand it a Playboy Playmate qualifies as notable ipso facto). Opbeith (talk) 23:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, on second glance Legal Action Group probably could qualify as a reliable source (assuming this publication is editorially independent of Mr. Blackman), but this is still a minor mention in a much larger article. All of the other mentions are either incidental to cases or events that Mr. Blackman was involved in, or letters or press releases that he put his name to. The bottom line is that you don't get notability by association, and that means simply representing a client in a notable case doesn't get you a Wikipedia article. Might be able to make an exception if it was a major landmark case, but this isn't it. Do you have any articles in independent reliable sources about Lionel Blackman himself? That might change things. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 11:51, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- Being a councillor is NN, but I still consider that PPCs for major parties should be kept until the election is over, and if necessary culled afterwards. I suspect that his advocacy roles and being the first solicitor to address the House of Lords provide slight notability, but we need associated articles such as Solicitors' International Human Rights Group before that is clear. Peterkingiron (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. If people aren't notable now they won't be after the election and Blackman has zero chance of winning Esher. The best solution to this would be short referenced bios of major candidates in the relevant constituency article though this in itself requires making a judgement call. There are a number of seats were UKIP, the Greens and the BNP for example have a good chance of beating one of the main three parties for third place so in those cases it would be difficult to justify. Valenciano (talk) 08:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned previously, it's his HR activities that are significant, he's hardly notable as an untried PPC, but given that the previous LibDem candidate got 30 per cent of the vote last time out, his chances are hardly "zero", so "wait and see" wouldn't be unreasonable.Opbeith (talk) 15:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned above regarding the "do we have articles on PPCs for major parties" issue, there was a recent discussion about this and it was decided to slightly adjust the guideline at WP:POLITICIAN to read as follows: "In the case of candidates for political office who do not meet this guideline, the general rule is to redirect to an appropriate page covering the election or political office sought in lieu of deletion." So assuming Blackman does not otherwise meet the notability guideline (which I believe to be true), standing for election is not good enough and the article should be redirected. Note that this decision about WP:POLITICIAN came out of a past AfD similar to this one and was discussed here at some length with the express purpose of providing a standard for these exact situations. I think we need to abide by that consensus for now (it's not irrelevant that Peterkingiron was the only person who opposed it), which means this article should be turned into a redirect. If by chance Blackman wins we can always restore the article later. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Peterkingiron, I'm afraid it's going to be difficult to get anyone to spend time doing a Solicitors' International Human Rights Group article in the knowledge that this is what lies in wait, I'm certainly not daft enough to. The point I was trying to make was that when it comes to major - notable - organisations issuing invitations to be a participant in a panel of international observers or acting as patrons or providing speakers on a regular basis and in particular joining as co-signatories in open letters in public appeals on important subjects, this is not notability by contagion. It's endorsement. When Justice for Colombia - with its own TUC-backed status - assembles a group of lawyers whom Doughty St Chambers are prepared to confirm are a group of leading UK human rights lawyers, that is source reliability twice over. When Justice for Colombia highlight five delegation participants on the cover of their report Rule of Law - Doughty Street, Garden Court, Old Square, Thompsons (all up the top of the tree) and fifthly Lionel Blackman - that is not notability by contagion; it is not an arbitrary association, it is an indication that the participant was a member of a select group chosen on the basis of merit. Or is that simply guesswork - might Lionel Blackman have been chosen by lottery as the lucky nonentity picked at random to make up the numbers? When Jackman is listed as one of only four individual endorsers of the Stop the Wall Palestine open letter, alongside Luisa Morgantini (ex Vice President of the European Parliament), Michael Mansfield QC and Fanny-Michaela Reisin, the inclusion of his signature is not arbitrary. Similarly when Graem Mew of Commonwealth Lawyers’ Association (CLA) and Mark Muller of the Bar Human Rights Committee (BHRC) issue a joint statement on human rights and attacks on lawyers and court officers in Zimbabwe, the status of a cosignatory is hardly to be considered equivalent to that of Lady Gaga's niece.

When the opening up of solicitor advocacy was one of the most notable developments in the UK legal profession in recent years and a solicitor advocate then goes on to win a case taken up from the magistrates' court to the House of Lords, the highest forum of English law (as it was at the time), is the report of the case itself not a reliable enough source in itself? Do non-notable cases succeed before the House of Lords? There's surely enough evidence of judgment by Blackman's peers, one way or another, even if press releases weren't newsworthy enough to get sufficiently regurgitated in the press to provide the Wikipedia formal seal of approval. Opbeith (talk) 00:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.