Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the Israeli throne
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Line of succession to the Israeli throne[edit]
- Line of succession to the Israeli throne (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
The article claims there is a new pretender to the Israeli throne (namely the throne held by the descendants of king David). Admittedly Yosef Dayan is probably a proven descendant of the Royal family, but there are also hundreds of other jews with equal rights (just as well documented).
The main point is that this is really a hoax (or at least a bad joke), since Dayan doesn't claim the throne. I searched even his sympathisers sites, but found no mention of him actually claiming the throne (they only say he has the potential). It also doesn't make much sense since the Messiach is supposed to be the king. DGtal 23:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete This page is bologna. No, it doesn't taste good, and no, there is absolutely no resemblance to the processed meat, but its (apparently)a lie. Wikipedia is not the place for lies... or bologna, for that matter. Delete! Billy227 00:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, Per nom. --Random Say it here! 00:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I just want to know: at what point in the nation's <60 year history did they cede political power to a monarch? --Infrangible 03:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The Israel being referred to is the historical one from ancient times, not the modern one. I'm guessing the theory is that this person can trace his descent back that far. Which, if so, and supported by reliable sources, would certainly be a reasonable claim for an article, but I'm doubtful that is actually the case. FrozenPurpleCube 04:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I actually believe his family is a descendant to the throne. There is actually a book by a Rabbi Avraham Dayan (19th century) that brings the whole list (that author was generation 84 to David, son after son). This is not something very rare. The Schneersohn family (Chabad and Kapust) is just one famous example. Again, this is not the reason I claimed this page should be removed. DGtal 06:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed, a lot of people can probably trace their claim that far, but if there's no reliable sources to back up the importance of the claim, it's just not going to merit an article. But if folks do pay attention to it, well, that'd be something like say the various women who claimed to be Princess Anastasia of Russia. FrozenPurpleCube 02:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I actually believe his family is a descendant to the throne. There is actually a book by a Rabbi Avraham Dayan (19th century) that brings the whole list (that author was generation 84 to David, son after son). This is not something very rare. The Schneersohn family (Chabad and Kapust) is just one famous example. Again, this is not the reason I claimed this page should be removed. DGtal 06:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The Israel being referred to is the historical one from ancient times, not the modern one. I'm guessing the theory is that this person can trace his descent back that far. Which, if so, and supported by reliable sources, would certainly be a reasonable claim for an article, but I'm doubtful that is actually the case. FrozenPurpleCube 04:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete this is going to need a lot more sourcing before it's acceptable. (I doubt this could be done.) JJL 16:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Just not enough (or any) reliable sources and cannot see how there ever will be for this article. Davewild 18:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Unreferenced and POV. Besides, how many descendants would there be of an individual like a 37 BC king, after 100 generations? No indication they all met in a "loya jirga" or some such and agreed this or that individual would be crowned the day the monarchy was restored in Israel. No sources to suggest there is an accepted presumptive king, but apparently many Men Who Would Be King. Edison 19:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete claims of pretenders who have been unknown and not shouting out their claims for over 1900 years are not encyclopedic. <ego trip>Maybe I have a claim to the Aztec throne? King Carlos. :-)</ego trip> Carlossuarez46 20:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per nom, lack of reliable sources hurting this article's survival. --Oscarthecat 12:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - I followed links to Exilarchs and so to an external encyclopaedia article. However that said nothing of anything more recent than c.1400 CE. If DGtal has sources he should write them up and edit the article accordingly. Peterkingiron 13:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll give you the book's name, but it won't help much since it's "just" a rabbi's geneology, not an attempt in creating a succesion line. I don't even know if this Dayan is related to the Dayan in question (though it is likely).
- תהלים עם פירוש שיר חדש / פעולת... כמוהר"ר אברהם בכמוהר"ר ישעיה דיין
- ירושלים : מכון הכתב, תשמ"ה (Jerusalem, Machon Haktav, 1984)
- DGtal 18:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletions. IZAK 21:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 21:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete this violation of WP:NONSENSE, as well as of WP:NOR; WP:COI; WP:RS. What a joke! A parody about List of messiah claimants! IZAK 21:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- NOTE: See related CfD at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 June 1#Category:Pretenders to the throne of Israel.
- NOTE: See related AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yosef Dayan
- Keep. I noticed the expandable navigation template on the right side of the article. Apparently somebody is working on a series of articles about former monarchies, and the Kingdom of Israel is indeed a former monarchy. I think the mention of Yosef Dayan is merely incidental to the point of this new stub which should be expaneded to cover the known succession of the defunct throne. —Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 21:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Elipongo: the Kingdom of Israel CEASED about 2,800 years ago, and it became null and void after its Ten Lost Tribes were lost for evermore. In any case, the Jewish Messiah (who will be the next "Jewish King" -- there is no such notion as an "Israeli king") will be descended from the Kingdom of Judah, which also ceased about 2,500 years ago. So this person who is working on this, should leave out the subject of Israel, eithe a a defunct ancient Kindom or as the State of Israel. By the way, how about a List of succession to the Egyptian throne with some latter-day Pharaoh aspirants included! IZAK 22:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You are correct in your dates, Izak. However my point is that the assertions above that this article is a joke/hoax are baseless and are NOT grounds for deletion. As far as I can tell this article meets notability criteria (I'm sure I could find several sources with little effort. Have a good Shabbat! —Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 00:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Elipongo: the Kingdom of Israel CEASED about 2,800 years ago, and it became null and void after its Ten Lost Tribes were lost for evermore. In any case, the Jewish Messiah (who will be the next "Jewish King" -- there is no such notion as an "Israeli king") will be descended from the Kingdom of Judah, which also ceased about 2,500 years ago. So this person who is working on this, should leave out the subject of Israel, eithe a a defunct ancient Kindom or as the State of Israel. By the way, how about a List of succession to the Egyptian throne with some latter-day Pharaoh aspirants included! IZAK 22:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete first off the title of the article is wrong, it should be "Israelite" if we are speaking of historical Israel. Second, as has been noted, a king 3000 years ago would leave a *lot* of modern descendants. -N 00:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.