Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leung Sheung

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sandstein 11:36, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Leung Sheung

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A passing mention in 2 books does not establish notability Australianblackbelt (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 21:05, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 21:05, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 21:05, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note it is not sure it are "passing mentions". SportsOlympic (talk) 22:45, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you don’t know what’s your point? I know those books and anyone who has studied wing chun knows those books are not about Leung Sheung Australianblackbelt (talk) 11:30, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete does not appear to have attracted the requisite secondary coverage required for WP:GNG. Jamesniederle (talk) 12:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete It seems to be widely agreed upon that he was Ip Man's first student, but that seems to be a case of WP:NOTINHERITED. The most significant thing he appears to have accomplished for spreading Wing Chun was to have used his position in the restaurant worker's union to sponsor Ip Man's earliest classes. It seems that his position as Ip Man's first student should lead to more significant coverage, but I couldn't find it in independent sources. It seems like there should be more, so if someone finds some please ping me. Papaursa (talk) 00:42, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A news article discussing Leung Sheung is preserved in image format here: A Scandal of the Yung-Ch'un School I must admit, my own biases can't be removed from this discussion as a member of the Leung Sheung lineage, but the above article should meet the criteria for secondary verification of status. Additional sources include the Wing Chun Sifu Database and Leung Sheung: Too Important to Overlook in Wing Chun Illustrated. I also would like to submit that, while admitting my own bias, the recent rash of deletions and edits on Yip Man Wing Chun related pages may also be biased in nature, and would request this be further looked at before processing additional deletions. I'm still very new to editing Wikipedia, so my apologies if I've rambled on too long while attempting to provide sources and a refutation for this deletion. 樂牧師 (talk) 04:21, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ewingchun is not a reliable source anyone can write on it. Australianblackbelt (talk) 07:47, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And Wing chun illustrated will write about anyone who teaches wing chun. Australianblackbelt (talk) 08:51, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think a blog post by "Wooden Dummy" on the "My Way of Wing Chun" website will "meet the criteria for secondary verification of status". A brief bio page on another website that anyone can post to also does meet the standard of an independent and reliable source. I don't know about the reliability or independence of "Wing Chun Illustrated", but an article in it by someone in Leung Sheung's lineage is not sufficient to show that WP:GNG is met (and also may not be considered independent). Papaursa (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't expect a blog post to be a verifiable source, however the page does preserve images from a genuine article from 1977. "Secrets of Kung-Fu vol. 1 no. 10, pp. 24-27 (Oct 1977)" I also do realize my own implicit bias, as previously stated, and as such, do not expect my own claims to be taken as "proof" in any way. Just trying to provide what sources I can that are available in English. 樂牧師 (talk) 06:19, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Papaursa: Just to clarity are you saying ewingchun.com which anyone can write on is a an independent and reliable source? Australianblackbelt (talk) 05:32, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@彩虹牧師: the recent deletions and editing to Ip Man students was not bias they where made because of lack of reliable sources, every person that has had their photo taken with Ip Man has claimed to be a Grandmaster of wing chun hence it is a case of WP:NOTINHERITED If the sources are there the content stays. Australianblackbelt (talk) 06:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I'm aware there's a lot of fakery in the Wing Chun world, sadly. However, Leung Sheung is well known to have been the first disciple of Yip Man, and was encouraged to teach by him. The big issue is that Leung Sheung never really sought publicity; he was an immensely humble and quiet man (and I believe he would even dispute being called a "Grandmaster", simply because that kind of talk didn't suit him, from the firsthand accounts I've heard). I'd also like to clarify that I am not accusing you personally of bias, but rather was noting quite a few edits by numerous people that seemed to lean towards personal bias rather than a genuine interest in improving Wikipedia. I myself do my best to refrain from editing when I could be considered to have a personal tie toward any of the subject matter, which is one reason I've refrained from cleaning up this article myself. 樂牧師 (talk) 06:19, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@彩虹牧師: Jim Fung is one of those fakes but since he has been published in national news sources in Australia his article stands. In order to establish notability which is another word for famous, the subject needs to have enough credible third party sources, national and international news coverage is the main way to verify notability. Martial arts magazines alone do not establish notability but they can serve to complete the content of an article. William Cheung is far less legitimate than Leung Sheung but he has attracted the most international media coverage than even Ip Chun himself, at one stage he was more famous than Ip Man because he claimed to have taught Bruce Lee to fight and the world's media believed him. The ones that are to blame for Leung Sheung not having enough news coverage are his students because it should not be up to the Grandmaster to seek out his own publicity. What you can do is on every birthday of Leung Sheung is to create a celebratory event in his name and invite national media outlets like China Morning Post, if you do that every year I guarantee in three years maybe even two there will be enough to establish notability for wikipedia. If you invite a celebrity or a well known state political figure this will surely attract free publicity. Good luck. Australianblackbelt (talk) 08:30, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.