Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Larry Steinbachek

Larry Steinbachek

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All reliable standalone coverage on the page is about the subject's death, the only other reliable source is about a song that the subject's group made, while the rest are WP:NOTRS sources like IMDB and music fan sites. Pretty clear failure of WP:NMUSICBIO. Should be redirected to Bronski Beat. JeffSpaceman (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related page because of similar independent notability issues. All standalone coverage of Bronski is in obituaries, while the only other sources presented are an article about his band, an unreliable fansite, and an interview which is a primary source. No independent notability here either, and should similarly be redirected to Bronski Beat because of the notability issues:

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep both received significant independent coverage in a number of major news and music news outlets. The idea that an obituary written about a person is "about his death" rather than a celebration of his life seems a bit over the top. I don't know of any guideline or consensus that a non-paid obituary is not counted for notability. It's not just those two either:

NME
Rolling Stone

I could see an argument WP:BANDMEMBER applies here although with a band this influential I'd put my thumb on the scale for Steinbachek for other things like LGBTQ activism and film scoring. Steve Bronski is even more notable than Steinbachek because he wrote Smalltown Boy. Oblivy (talk) 23:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I disagree and I very much believe WP:BANDMEMBER applies. I'll admit that maybe saying that the obituaries are about their deaths rather than celebrations of their lives was unduly harsh, but the pieces objectively only exist because their subjects passed away. I'm not finding virtually anything in reliable sourcing regarding Steinbachek's activism or film score work, and Bronski does not inherit notability from being one of three co-writers on a song that was a top 3 hit in the U.K. and a top 50 hit in the U.S. If you want to find sources that solely focus on the subjects that that meet WP:V and WP:RS and add them to the article, go for it -- I might even walk this back if you can find enough, but for now outside of their passings I just don't think there's enough coverage of either of them for their standalone articles to quite meet WP:NMUSIC. JeffSpaceman (talk) 00:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that major news-outlet obituaries "only exist because their subjects pass away" is more than a wee bit reductive. Yes, they are occasioned by the death, but they are written because the person was notable. Oblivy (talk) 00:49, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just because an obituary was published by a reliable source does not automatically make the subject independently notable by Wikipedia standards -- to prove my point, I will direct you to two deletion discussions about deceased musicians, WP:Articles for deletion/Koopsta Knicca and WP:Articles for deletion/Lil Phat, both from this year (the former actually started by me, not entirely coincidentally). In both cases, despite there being tributes written by sources that pass WP:RS (including here and here, respectively), there was consensus at both discussions that there was not enough coverage of these artists for the purposes of standalone articles outside of their deaths, with the former article being redirected to the notable group he was a member of, and the latter being redirected to a U.S. top 10 hit he appeared on and had a co-writing credit for. Personally, I feel that Steinbachek and Bronski are in the exact same boat, more or less -- just because they were members of an unquestionably notable group whose music charted and went platinum in various nations does not mean they individually pass WP:NMUSICBIO, since notability is not inherited and outside of them dying the sourcing in both articles does not appear to establish it outside of the context of the group. I'm not trying to persuade you to change your vote or anything, but I really don't see enough in either article that couldn't just be included in the Bronski Beat article. JeffSpaceman (talk) 09:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is, of course, nothing to prevent a band member from being notable despite not meeting the criteria set forward at WP:BANDMEMBER. I wasn't suggesting an obituary means a person meets WP:N, but at the same time an obituary is certainly an opportunity taken by the press to significantly cover someone's life and there is generally ZERO relationship between the notability of their death and the notability of their life. Oblivy (talk) 15:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge both to Bronski Beat. I don't see sufficient justification for standalone articles, but detail on the band members should be included there. --Michig (talk) 11:49, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect both articles to Bronski Beat. Best solution here, that also retains the information. ResonantDis_tortion 09:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - not merely a band member, he co-wrote one of the most iconic songs of the 1980s, for which books and episodes of music history have been published. That alone is reason enough, but as shown by simple WP:BEFORE searches, there’s clearly sufficient sources for significant coverage. His music has been called “landmark” by The Independent, an “anthem of gay culture resonates 40 years on … the haunting classic” according to The Guardian, Spin magazine focused on his individuality in their breakout cover story, and the Financial Times called his song a “hit was a heartfelt cry for liberation.” Scholars are still writing about the subject’s role in writing this song decades later. Beyond that song, he co-wrote a song for Divine, his work post-Somerville is discussed in the Encyclopedia of Popular Music, another book about chart-toppers, and in a book about Donna Sommer, all which I found with a few clicks. Bearian (talk) 02:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which band member are you talking about? I ask, given that I have nominated two articles here and you don't specify who "he" refers to here. Though I'll admit that a good amount of the sourcing you've provided is pretty impressive, I'd recommend citing them within the article itself too. But as for you talking about co-writing an iconic '80s track and roles within the group, please see WP:INHERIT and WP:BANDMEMBER per the above back-and-forth. The last couple of sources you cite certainly contribute to independent notability, but the Independent and Guardian articles are about the song, so while they are from reliable sources and usable on the article, I don't think they contribute to notability for either band member since they're about the song and group, regardless of the individuals who contributed to either. You have found some good sourcing from those books though, so I might loosen up my position a little based on those. JeffSpaceman (talk) 12:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as per the multiple reliable sources identified above by Bearian including reliable books and academic papers so that WP:GNG is passed and deletion or merge is unnecessary in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 21:36, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]