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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. SpinningSpark 18:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Larry Holliday

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Larry Holliday (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Fails WP:NSKATE. Holliday has not competed internationally. He did not medal at senior Nationals. Though he has been successful at U.S. Adult Masters competition, the level is comparable to U.S. novice which is two levels below senior required by WP:NSKATE. Kirin13 (talk) 01:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Larry Holliday made the Senior National Team in 1990. His 10th place finish at the National Championships that year qualified him to compete internationally on the Senior level in 1990 at Skate Canada International, where he placed 5th in the Interpretive event.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frankkymd (talk • contribs) 05:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The source you gave does not mention Skate Canada. Also looking through the Skate Canada articles, I don't see anywhere mentioned that he competed. Nothing in your comment shows that he met requirements of WP:NSKATE. Kirin13 (talk) 05:57, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Larry Holliday, 44, reclaimed a couple of things this year in the championship masters junior-senior men's event. Not only did he win gold for the first time since 2004, when the former senior-level competitor and 1990 Team USA member became the first to successfully land a triple jump at the U.S. Adult Championships. Icenetwork news article[2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frankkymd (talk • contribs) 06:12, 5 January 2015‎ (UTC)[reply]

No conflict of interest, but I am trying to clear up the matter in a timely fashion. US Figure Skating has his results from 1990 Skate Canada International that can be verified. Also there was major television publicity in Canada when he competed. The fourth reference clearly shows him competing at the Senior level Grand Prix event, Skate Canada.[4] Frankkymd (talk) 16:20, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The bing video can't be used as a source per WP:YT and WP:VIDEOREF. Even if he competed at Skate Canada, he did not compete in the Grand Prix event, he competed in a side event of interpretive skating which has never been part of the Grand Prix and isn't recognized by WP:NSKATE. Kirin13 (talk) 19:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Frankkymd: In response to "No conflict of interest": You have over 200 edits to the Larry Holliday article spanning three years. Outside of that you have less than a dozen edits – and even those all relate to Larry Holliday. Your sole purpose on Wikipedia is to promote Holliday – see WP:SPA. You're the only registered user to have added information to this article. I have a hard time believing that you have no relation to Holliday. Kirin13 (talk) 01:20, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Kirin13 there is no relation, and all of my edits have been fact based, taken from the many articles on his career. Nowhere in my edits do you find a personal opinion. I do appreciate your concern and your willingness to help out, it has been a learning experience. One question....you said Larry did not compete internationally in an earlier comment and later when you found out that he did, you made another comment that the international event was just a side event. Was that a contradiction on your part? Frankkymd (talk) 02:05, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Frankkymd When you presented evidence that he did compete at an international competition (even though the evidence is not from a WP:RS, thus cannot be included in the article until a RS is found), I evaluated that. From the evidence presented, he did not compete in the men's singles discipline but in men's interpretive skating. Interpretive skating has never been part of the Grand Prix and competing in it, will not qualify him for notability under WP:NSKATE.
If you have no relation to Holliday, why the singular and prolonged (three years of editing one article) interest in him?
Kirin13 (talk) 02:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Kirin13 No relation. It's fun focusing on something good. If the rules here tell me that I have to focus on many topics, I will do that, but I have not been aware of that rule. However Larry is clearly notable under the GNG.Frankkymd (talk) 02:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep failing NSKATE (even if Holliday does, not actually clear that is the case) does not automatically make a skater non-notable. A person can still be notable under the GNG if their career has been the subject of significant coverage by reliable sources. Considering someone wrote a full length biography about Holliday there would have to be pretty exceptional circumstances to say he's non-notable. But, what we actually find is many other RS covering him in varying degrees of detail. (The SI story alone would generally be sufficient to establish notability, for example.) Thus, he is clearly notable under the GNG; whether he meets NSKATE or not is irrelevant. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @ThaddeusB: That "someone wrote a full length biography" was his mother and the book was self-published. That source shouldn't be used for any claims in the article. Kirin13 (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well that would qualify as "exceptional circumstances" to discount that source then (there is no way I could have guessed someone named Norma Jean would be the mother of someone named Larry Holliday :)). It can be used in the article for basic biographical information per guidelines on primary sources, but you are right it does nothing for notability. However, I stand by the keep comment based on extensive Sports Illustrated (which is the gold standard in sports writing) article and the various other secondary sources available about Holliday. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:45, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • @ThaddeusB: Perhaps the only thing notable about Holliday is that he had an SI article written on him, since nothing in the SI article shows any notability. Given that nothing else is notable, Holliday's article should clearly focus on the fact he had an SI article written on him I'm not convinced it makes Holliday notable.
          This is a skater whose highest placement at Nationals was 10th (NSKATE requires 1st) and that was once – the rest of time he placed worse. He may have competed once in an international tournament (though a WP:RS has yet to be found for that), but even that tournament result would not qualify him for notability under NSKATE. Compare that to a more recent skater, Braden Overett. A quick look up tells that Overett placed 10th at Nationals three times (2003, 2005, 2007), and once he managed to place 7th (2004). Also, he competed internationally at least three times. Yet, Overett is not notable by Wikipedia standards, even though his results are better than Holliday's.
          Adult Nationals' results don't make someone notable. I was being generous comparing Adult Nationals to novice level (I was comparing the Adults' free skate scores to the novices' short program scores; novices' free skate scores are significantly higher than adults' scores) – when you actually compare free skate scores and moves executed, it's more similar to juvenile (the lowest of five levels competed at U.S. Nationals). NSKATE requires winning at highest national level (or compete at ISU Championships, compete at Grand Prix, or win other senior international). The references that cover Adult Nationals are by U.S. Figure Skating (official websites usfsa.org & usfigureskating.org and they also own and publish Ice Network & Skating magazine) – the organization that runs and sponsors the event. (Btw, USFS accounts for 27 out of 47 refs in Holliday's article [some refs are identical so actual number of refs is less].) USFS also covers juvenile results – doesn't make those notable. Holliday has not competed in adult internationals (those exist), so his 'fame' extends only to the small world of U.S. competitive adult skating.
          So obviously, Holliday's notability doesn't come from his skating results – so where does it come from? I considered that he might be the first successful African-American skater, but that proved false (Debi Thomas came before him, winning Worlds in 1986 plus two more Worlds medals and an Olympic medal). All I found was that he was good at self promotion. The SI article even talks about it – how he and his team got various Chicago news sources to pickup his story – then a Chicago journalist wrote the SI article.
          So looking at the sources: (a) 27 USFS sources, (b) 1 is Wikipedia sourcing itself, (c) 5 are pages from self-published biography written by Holliday's mother, (d) 1 ice arena website, (e) 13 other articles (though two are repeats) = 47 references. (a) consists of 10 refs which are competition results (and I've found 10 such results for a novice skater before, so this is not significant) and 17 refs which are actually only 9 distinct articles (1 of which is dead link, some just mention his name), all about adult skating. Another words, all 27 refs are about the least notable part of skating career. I hope I don't have to explain the issues with (b) or (c). (d) is nothing worth mentioning – it works for what it's being used for but having name listed on list of coaches at an arena is not significant. So really anything notable is (e). Two are repeats, which leaves 11 articles. One article is from a skating site (which also covers novice skaters) is about his adult skating. One article is from about.com about adult skating which mentions Holliday (about.com also has entire articles on novice skaters). Two articles from Chicago about a local ice show (one of which doesn't even mention Holliday). One link is a website that doesn't look to meet WP:RS but claims to have an abstract of a boy scouts' article. So what's left is 6 articles on his 'early' skating. Four of which are local Chicago articles (one barely mentions him), one is the SI article written by a Chicago journalist (which talks about Holliday self promoting), and one USA Today article which is not available online.
          So really, his entire notability is having an SI article be written on him. None of the refs about his later career are significant sources. Of the six on his 'early' career, there is four local, one offline, and the SI article. Might as well have the lead be "Larry Holliday is an American figure skater who once had a Sports Illustrated article written on him." since it's the only notable thing about him.
          As far as the current state of the Wikipedia article, it needs some cleanup. It was written by a single person whose singular interest on Wikipedia is promoting Holliday (see above). Though things look referenced, I've already noticed many things off by comparing statements to what is actually written in the sources. The fact other BLP articles are poorly referenced doesn't make this person notable (just says there has been one dedicated user). Some things, e.g. those sourced by the biography written by Holliday's mother, need better references. Three out of four sections of the article are about his adult skating career – which is much less notable than his non-notable 'early skating career'. I don't see Larry Holliday as notable, but if Wikipedia sees him as such, then his article needs work.
          Kirin13 (talk) 05:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
          • Notability is primarily defined by significant coverage in reliable sources, not accomplishments. The accomplishment based guidelines, such as NSKATE, are useful proxies, but it is the coverage or lack thereof that determines notability. And Holliday appears to have received significant RS coverage in the early 1990s when he was thought to have Olympic potential. This is evidenced by the SI article, the USA Today article (not being online is irrelevant), and no doubt many others - people are not normally covered by such major publications and ignored by lesser ones. This is simple an example of early 1990s sources have poor coverage online. (The period between 1960 and 2000 is very poorly covered online, because of the combination of material still being copyrighted and there not being enough interest to warrant spending the funds necessary to scan the material for a pay service.) here is another example of such coverage. Yah, I know its a magazine for kids (that doesn't make it unreliable, incidentally), but that kind of illustrates my point. If there was enough interest for kids publication to cover him in depth, there obviously are other adult publications that covered him besides the two already used (USA Today+SI). But even if there weren't, those two alone would be sufficient to establish notability. As to the article needing work, that isn't the purpose of AfD. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
            • Good to know. Since figure skating popularity in US has plummeted significantly since early 1990s, skaters have to accomplish 10x as much as Holliday did in order to get half the coverage. So really US skaters from pre-Internet age are at an advantage compared to today's skaters. Since Holliday didn't have any significant results, his article is more of a sign of the times. Also, it's his self-promotion (since some better figure skaters did not get his amount of coverage) – that's really the area he did have major success in. As far as the USA Today article, my question on it was not so much whether it's online or not, but the contents and length of it. There is no way to tell whether it was a three-sentence blurb or a full out profile like the SI article. Also, from looking over the wiki article, the editor has no problem adding info with a ref but the info not being in the ref. Even above, he gave me three reference that supposable had to do with Skate Canada but never mentioned the competition. That issue is however irrelevant for this page. Due to the editor misleading on sources however, I no longer trust any sources he gives me without being able to verify. I assume, in good faith, it exists, but, from previous experience, I doubt it has all the info he uses it for. As far as the issue with the article, that's more directed to EoRdE6 than you. But since I didn't feel like making two responses, I combined them and pointed him to it. Kirin13 (talk) 07:06, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I agree with User:ThaddeusB's rationale, and think the article is more than well sourced compared to many other severely lacking BLP's around here. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 02:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@kirin13 Nowhere in the articles does it say Larry Holliday promoted himself. You state that he and his team did this, and I find no mention of Larry doing that. Also you misquoted the SI article when you said Larry was the first successful African American, and claimed this to be a lie. The article states that Larry is the first successful African American skater since Debi Thomas and that is a fact. You are changing the story to suit your own needs. Also when you claimed that he never competed internationally and after evidence was presented you changed your story again.Frankkymd (talk) 11:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Kirin13 And Larry Holliday must have competed in Skate Canada per this article from The Lethbridge Herald Oct. 24, 1990 covering the event. In the sports section at the end of the first column on page 9 his name is listed as a competitor from the United States.[5] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frankkymd (talk • contribs) 14:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Frankkymd (talk) 14:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1)Yes, I'm sure Holliday was physically forced to give interviews and photos. And I'm sure his mother wrote the biography completely against his will and he was extremely upset with it. – Or he was a willing participant.
2) No where did I state that SI article claimed he was the first African American. Don't accuse me of making things up when you're making things up.
3) When there was no evidence of him competing internationally, I stated he hadn't. When evidence was provided, I concurred, but said that a WP:RS is necessary to include it in the article. This is in line with Wikipedia policy WP:V. What's your problem?
4) Great. Even better would be a source after the competition that says he competed and his results. Skaters withdraw from competitions all the time, so an article before the competion is not worth as much as one after. Though given the copyright violating YouTube video, it's fair to say he competed, but a WP:RS is still necessary.
Kirin13 (talk) 02:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Kirin13 Here is your quote,"I considered that he might be the first successful African-American skater, but that proved false (Debi Thomas came before him, winning Worlds in 1986". Why would you consider that when the article in Sports Illustrated says otherwise. That should not have been a consideration. Please read the sources thoroughly before responding. And the results page is here in the Lethbridge Herald showing his placement at Skate Canada, the International competition that he competed in. Lethbridge Herald Oct. 26, 1990 page 1 sports section.[6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frankkymd (talk • contribs) 04:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1) I would consider something because I don't memorize articles on Holliday but I'm familiar with skating – a sport that with a reputation to be for 'white girls'. You gave that source to state he competed in Skate Canada. Ctrl-f said that it was false. If you're going to attack me for not memorizing sources, then you should actually read your sources to ensure they have the material you claim they do (unlike the first three you gave here & similar false refs on Holliday's article). 2) Congrats, you can use that as a RS for him competing at the 1990 Skate Canada in men's interpretive event (and as I stated above, that is not a GP event). Kirin13 (talk) 05:27, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Kirin13 Wikipedia needs people like you for input into cleaning up the articles and finding errors. So would you check Tammy Gambill's article since you have edited all of her students on her page. The students all seem to fit a criteria for NSKATE perfectly. Did you notice that? Did Tammy have a hand in setting the criteria? The criteria includes skaters from 1995 to the present competing in the Grand Prix series Internationals, and excludes skaters from 1994 on down. The International events from 1994 on down, were no less important just because they were not a part of the Grand Prix series. The United States sent them to represent the country, just as they do today. Also her claim of making the Nationals has no reference at all. No results page, no newspaper story, nothing.Frankkymd (talk) 22:14, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Larry Holliday's story was published in magazines, newspapers, television, etc....and has been seen, read, and heard by people all over the world. That establishes his notability, which is another standard of Wikipedia.Frankkymd (talk) 22:19, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And for information purposes look at Atoy Wilson he would not have a profile on Wikipedia if it were for Nskate criteria only, but we clearly see why his profile is on Wikipedia.Frankkymd (talk) 19:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tammy Gambill article was created after her students, so not sure how she created the criteria. In fact she has many more students who don't qualify under WP:NSKATE and don't have articles. The list just includes the students that do. (As do lists for other coaches.) She started coached in the 1990's, so yeah, her list includes skaters form 1990's to the present. Her making nationals is sourced. (A source doesn't have to be from 20 years ago, a recent source stating accomplishments is still a source.) What's the problem?
Grand Prix events are invitational, where only top skaters get invites. Non-GP events (and non ISU championship) don't have as strict requirements, thus NSKATE requiring a gold. This has nothing to do with Holliday since interpretive skating has never been in the GP. So what are you arguing here for?
Wilson fails NSKATE and it can be questioned on whether he should have an article. The article is barely sourced – both sources just include a small blurb on him, which does not meet WP:GNG. His claim to notability is being first African American to make nationals. What's Holliday's?
Kirin13 (talk) 08:47, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"The existence of many figure skating related articles have resulted in many stub articles. The following are guidelines created by WikiProject Figure Skating to help asses the notability of articles. They are a draft version, feel free to discuss them on the project talk page.

These guidelines are meant to act as a specific supplement to the overall policy of Wikipedia:Notability relating to figure skating-related biographies and organizations, and not to supersede them". He was the first to land a triple jump at the Adult National Championships and that was well sourced.Frankkymd (talk) 10:57, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"first to land a triple jump at the Adult National Championships" has never had any significant coverage and would not meet any notability requirements. You should stick to SI & USA Today articles if you're trying to meet WP:GNG, which means his earlier competitive career. Holliday hasn't done anything special – he's a national-level skater who decided to skate in adult competitions while other national- & international-level skaters went to compete and land triples at professional competitions and shows. It's a joke to compare adult competitions to professional & amateur competitions.
As far as the WP:NSKATE, the discussions were that it's too lenanient, not too harsh. So you're not going to catch a break with it.
Kirin13 (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Sports Illustrated. "A One-Man Spectacular: Holliday on Ice". Lisa Twyman Bessone, February 11, 1991, page 14 http://www.si.com/vault/1991/02/11/123615/a-one-man-spectacular-holliday-on-ice-chicagos-larry-holliday-has-persevered-during-hard-times-to-become-skatings-unlikeliest-rising-star
  2. ^ http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090425&content_id=64209&vkey=ice_news
  3. ^ http://www.lifeskate.com/skate/2008/04/2008-us-adult-1.html
  4. ^ http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=larry+holliday+skate+canada&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=8AF41032E040E9BB92C48AF41032E040E9BB92C4
  5. ^ http://newspaperarchive.com/ca/alberta/lethbridge/lethbridge-herald/1990/10-24/page-9?tag=larry+holliday+ladies+interpretive&rtserp=tags/?ndt=bd&pd=24&pm=10&py=1990&pe=28&pem=10&pey=1990&pep=ladies-interpretive&pf=larry&pl=holliday
  6. ^ http://newspaperarchive.com/ca/alberta/lethbridge/lethbridge-herald/1990/10-26/page-9?tag=results&rtserp=tags/results?pc=16234&psi=4&pci=2&pt=11117&ndt=ex&pd=26&pm=10&py=1990

Landing a triple jump at the age of 50 is no small feat, (don't be surprised if Sports Illustrated has another feature on the guy in the future as being the first to land it at the Adult Nationals:)) competitors at the Olympics routinely fall on the jump and he is still landing them....Not a joke at all! Check again on your comment about the adult nationals being a joke comparing them to Olympics or the standard track Nationals. I never compared the event to that. However any skater who is routinely landing triple jumps at the age of 50 must be extremely special. At 30, Tara Lipinski does not do them. Sarah Hughes does not do them. Brian Boitano struggles with them, Braden Overett falls on them, and Dorothy Hamill never could do them! @Kirin13 Your comment about the sport being considered for white girls, says it all right there. That is probably why he received all of the attention! Just think about how difficult that must have been staying in a sport while people around him continued to mock him. That is called trying to make a difference for the better. And again, Larry was an International level competitor as evidence supports this with the earlier reference. Why must you continue to say that he was not. Thank you very much. Frankkymd (talk) 02:16, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You seriously comparing him to Olympic skaters? Olympic skaters do six types of triple jumps and quads. Holliday is doing the simplest two types of triples. Olympic skaters do 8-10 triples/quads per free skate. Holliday does 0-2 triple per free skate. Olympic skaters fall, most often on those quads that Holliday doesn't do, but they succeed on the 7+ triples/quads per free skate. Are you telling me Holliday never falls during his programs? Then what were the deductions for? To compare Holliday doing a triple or two to Olympic skaters doing a quad or two is quite a comparison you have there.
Plenty of national and international skaters do triples past their amateur retirement. Brian Orser did a triple axel when he was forty – a jump so hard that there has only been a handful of women to ever land one and many men struggle with it. (btw, has Holliday ever even done one?) Jason Brown (who out of US men has been doing the best this season) was already competing at senior nationals (and placing higher than Holliday ever did) before adding the triple axel to his programs. Easier triples, like the kind Holliday does, kids do them at age 10 and professional skaters continue to land them well past their prime. Most skaters choose to retire from skating and thus no longer jump, but those who continue to skate, can still land those jumps. E.g. Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning, etc. For a 49 year old (age Holliday was at last adult nationals) to land two triples (under rotated, thus not full triples) is impressive but nothing new, notable, or 'unique'. (Just like winning US Nationals at novice level is impressive, but still not notable.) Good luck on getting that new SI article.
As for your new argument of him being notable for being black, the only article I recall mentioning it is the SI article. And even above, you argued against it being a reason for his notability. Since he was not the first nor the most successful, I'm not sure which route you're trying to argue.
Holliday competed internationally once in a discipline not recognized by the ISU. A discipline so not recognized, there is no Wikipedia article on it – interpretive skating. So, yeah he's an "international athlete in a discipline that no one knows about and hardly anyone ever competed in". In men's singles, he's never competed internationally, thus he's a former national-level skater.
Kirin13 (talk) 04:42, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, just about everything you just said is completely wrong, and you have no references to back it up! NONE! Please include your sources! Adult figure skating is recognized by Wikipedia, so thanks for clearing up the fact that Wikipedia thinks it has some value. Or maybe you think that article should be deleted as well? This is getting a bit childish so I will let you argue alone, but you did have a few good comments. Unfortunately most of them were not only incorrect, they were hostile and uncalled for. Thank you.Frankkymd (talk) 10:24, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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