Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Larne Cricket Club

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 07:33, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Larne Cricket Club[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Not a professional club, and playing in the third tier of a provincial league, does not pass WP:CLUB or WP:GNG, also nominating Laurelvale Cricket Club, Portadown Cricket Club & Templepatrick Cricket Club for the same reason. Mtking (talk) 10:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

These pages should not be deleted because the articles do indicate how or why the subjects are important or significant: they say that the clubs play in the NCU Senior League, i.e. they are senior cricket clubs in Ireland, the highest status of cricket club in Ireland (as opposed, e.g. to junior clubs). All senior cricket clubs in Ireland deserve at least a stub, just as all senior football clubs have one. Clubs in lower tiers of this league may progress to the second and first tiers. Mooretwin (talk) 10:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions. — The-Pope (talk) 12:09, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - sufficient notable material is available for all. They play in a provincial (and not provisional) league, much like most sport within Ireland. Off the top of my head for example, Irish internationals Noel and Alan Nelson both played at Laurelvale and there is plenty of other source material to bolster these articles. Tough to AGF when you see hasty tagging like this, and obvious from response that knows nothing of the subject matter. Taking the attitude that these clubs are non notable shows ignorance of the set up in Ireland. Cregagh, for instance, currently lag in Section 3, but were until the 70s one of top clubs, with the likes of Irish internationals like Charlie Corry and Frank Fee playing for them. At the same time in the 70s Carrickfergus were in the bottom league and are now in the top section and have had internationals such as South African AB de Villiers and New Zealander Andre Adams play for them, as well as Irish international Ryan Eagleson.Weejack48 (talk) 14:19, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Spell checker error aside I was unable to find anything that fit the WP:CLUB or WP:GNG test for them, if you can then I will haply withdraw the nomination. As for the clams of past top players playing then that is a case of WP:INHERITED. Mtking (talk) 23:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It took approximately ten minutes to source and insert content and sources for the bottom nominated article on your list - without searching mountain high and low for the material. I know that sufficient and notable content is available for all the senior cricket clubs within Ireland without much effort. This is the layer of clubs that provide the players for the Irish national side that competed in the recent World Cup. The content added was all I had time to include in the short space of time available. As for your top players comment, this is laughable. In essence this is what all sporting clubs claim, as the performance of those top players contributes to the success (or failure) and notability of the sporting club in the first place. Also relying on web searches you can easily fall into the WP:RECENT trap.Weejack48 (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With the possiable exception of two LOCAL news stories (Historic day for Templepatrick Cricket Club and Further Financial Investment in Templepatrick Cricket Club) None of those are Significant coverage that sources address the subject directly in detail (see WP:GNG) and WP:CLUB Mtking (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Cricket has devised notability guidelines. For clubs, while there is no specific guideline for Irish cricket, there is for English cricket. The guideline for English cricket is that any club that belongs to "one of the Bradford Cricket League, the Lancashire League, the Central Lancashire League or one of the ECB Premier Leagues is notable. In other words, clubs belonging to senior provincial leagues are notable. The provincial leagues in Ireland are the equivalent of these leagues in England and, therefore, clubs belonging to those leagues meet the notability guidelines. Mooretwin (talk) 10:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can not compare sports leagues across countries like that, for example a soccer club playing at the 7 level in England could be considered notable but one playing at the 5 level in say Iraq would not be. Mtking (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of your views on Iraqi football, the senior provincial leagues for club cricket in Ireland are the equivalent of the regional leagues for club cricket in England. Mooretwin (talk) 08:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But here is the problem in your logic and you cannot have it both ways - the Lancashire, Bradford and Central Lancashire are provincial leagues that are essentially amateur in status with in most cases one or two professionals employed at most. Also, please go to some other sporting club articles and remove the details of players/members and coaches and claim that their achievements are inherited by the club article. Your statement on sources is akin to saying (excuse the hyperbole here) that Alex Ferguson cannot be mentioned in the Manchester United article because the club is only inheriting his coaching achievements, utter rubbish.Weejack48 (talk) 21:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No it is not what I am saying, however if Ferguson, after leaving Man U went to coach his Pub team, that would not make his pub team notable. Mtking (talk) 22:03, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - but I fail entirely to see how this last point is relevant to your argument. (Mind you an article for the pub team might be notable given the likely news coverage!) The club coach does not carry out his work in a vacuum and you would appear to be dismissive of this in order to prove you point and bolster your case. He coaches his fellow club members and his progress and achievement with his club has gained European wide recognition and coverage. How is this (as you claim) inherited coverage any different from an MLB club claiming in their article the achievements of a transient athlete winning a Cy Young or MVP award based on their individual performance. Finally the English amateur provincial leagues you feel are not the equivalent of the Irish Leagues, are not even the feeder sides to the English national team, they have the County sides in between. The Irish players, with very very few exceptions made their breakthrough to the Irish side whilst playing in the Irish provincial leagues. An Irish side that for your info defeated the English team in the last Cricket World Cup.Weejack48 (talk) 07:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:39, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The individual players in these clubs are agreed to be not notable, but it is reasonable that the clubs should be. People like me not familiar with the sport or the area but seeing a mention of them would expect to find at least some information --the above discussion of just what their role is is useful, and belongs in the articles DGG ( talk ) 14:49, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep these four articles, at least for now. When this AfD began, each of the four nominated articles was a very short stub. Since then, one of the four articles has been expanded significantly, which leads me to believe that there may be coverage out there for each of these clubs. Cricket clubs do not have to be professional to garner coverage in secondary sources. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 17:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, and a question. First, I know nothing at all about cricket. The statement above by Mooretwin (the senior provincial leagues for club cricket in Ireland are the equivalent of the regional leagues for club cricket in England) was left uncontested, and per WP:CRIN that would pretty much wrap it up. Even more, if it is the case that the there are more league "levels" (is that the word?) in England than Ireland, that would only make the Irish league more "professional" than their English counterpart (since they're closer to the top brass). So, is that statement accurate? - frankie (talk) 23:58, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.