Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kings and Princes of Wales

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kings and Princes of Wales

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This recently created article mashes together unnecessarily two longstanding already existing articles: King of Wales and Prince of Wales. They are in fact two different topics. "King of Wales" was a very specific title used once in the 11th century. "Prince of Wales" had a very different usage on an ongoing basis from the 13th century. This article is at the same time unnecessary because of the two pre-existing articles and artificial. It's not a real topic. DeCausa (talk) 17:14, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility and Wales. Shellwood (talk) 17:24, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a perfectly justified complete list of the rulers of Wales. It lists all the rulers of "Wales", which neither King of Wales nor Prince of Wales does.

The titles used are very varied and can't be split simply into "King" or "Prince". Multiple rulers claimed both titles among other titles, there is no clear-cut line. The title name gradually evolved but the function of the ruler was broadly the same.

Examples of varied titles:

Rhodri the Great: "began to reign over the Welsh" (843 AD)

Gruffydd ap Cynan: "king and sovereign and prince and defender and pacifier of all the Welsh" (in 1136)

Owain Gwynedd: Prince over the British nation (in 1146), King of Wales, King of the Welsh, Prince of the Welsh

Rhys ap Gruffydd: Head of all Wales (in 1197), Prince of the Welsh (in 1184), Prince of Wales

Changing the title of the page to "List of the Rulers of Wales" could be a potential option. Titus Gold (talk) 17:27, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They are not "rulers of Wales". They are rulers of part of Wales who adopted a title, either "king of Wales" in one instance or "Prince of Wales". The other examples given are spurious misuses of WP:PRIMARY sources - one of references to rulers of part of Wales. List of rulers of Wales already exists as well. DeCausa (talk) 17:38, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and Rename per Titus Gold. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 17:34, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: The page List of rulers in Wales already exists. This whole shiskabob is pointless. Merge wherever, but otherwise it is pointless to have another list which covers the same topics. Curbon7 (talk) 17:37, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rulers of Wales is about ALL the regional rulers of Kingdoms of Gwynedd, Deheubarth etc. and minor princes within Wales @Curbon7, not the Prince or Kings of Wales. Would you mind having a detailed look at both pages before reconsidering that suggestion please? Titus Gold (talk) 18:11, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In reply to the previous question, "King or Prince of Wales titleholders" or "Native Kings and Princes of Wales'" could be options. The sources are translations of the original and yes would not hurt from further citation with additional sources.

I would point out that King of the Britons only uses primary sources because additional sources are scarce. Many of them are cited as ruling all of Wales.

I've renamed the regional rulers as Rulers of Welsh kingdoms as it is a more apt title. Titus Gold (talk) 18:37, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted that article back to the original longstanding name. It's an artificial move to support your objective here. that article is about any ruler in Wales not just the ruler of a "kingdom". The reality is that none of the rulers you want to put into this article can be differentiated. They are not "ruling all of Wales" except one or two in momentary instances. This is a POV exercise to support a nationalist contention, unsupported by secondary sources. DeCausa (talk) 19:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't accuse me of having certain political beliefs, that's quite inappropriate. The commonality is that they have all have been described as Prince or King of Wales as per the title. My significant interest in Welsh history is my motivation. The name change was to better differentiate between the pages, quite obviously.

I repeat: King of the Britons uses primary sources only because secondary sources are hard to come by for some ancient rulers. Regardless, you'll be pleased to hear that I have now added additional secondary citations that list the vast majority of the Kings and princes. I've also added a cited section explaining the general evolution of the title from King to Prince. Please feel free to have a look and suggest further improvements.

Another alternative is to merge as suggested by @Curbon7. King of Wales would probably be the most appropriate merger page.Titus Gold (talk) 20:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Also, a duplicate of List of rulers of Wales. Peter Ormond 💬 13:05, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - as the "prince of Wales" isn't a monarch & Wales isn't an independent country. The title is held by the 'heir apparent' to the British throne & 14 other Commonwealth thrones. PS - When the time comes (due to the 2011 Acts, enacted in 2015), it'll be interesting to see what title a female heir-apparent will get. GoodDay (talk) 15:13, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will copy relevant content over to King of Wales since there is a majority for deleting. Could someone else go ahead and delete Kings and Princes of Wales after I've done this then, please? Titus Gold (talk) 12:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, though a selective merge of some information into the quite sparse List of rulers of Wales might not go amiss. But, while there were very famous and powerful Welsh princes in medieval history, this new article does appear to be a confusing mash-up. Sionk (talk) 12:35, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've moved relevant content over ready for deleting the article. Titus Gold (talk) 14:36, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The kings and princes of Wales were essentially rulers of the country, in other words the princes were sovereigns and the title was not honorary the way it is today. This is covered in detail at List of rulers of Wales, so I don't know why we need to create duplicates. Keivan.f^Talk 11:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does someone want to go ahead with the deletion then? Think we've had enough input now. Titus Gold (talk) 13:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There might be people who could actually be supportive of the idea. You never know. Also, if there's enough substance for an article and a list, then the splitting can be justified. But thus far, it hasn't been in my opinion. Keivan.f^Talk 14:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.