Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khuzestani Arabic

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus to delete. But that doesn't mean the tiny amount of content here can't be merged into Iraqi Arabic, as the tag on the article already suggests, with Khuzestani Arabic becoming a redirect to Iraqi Arabic (or the appropriate section thereof). I would consider that the best option. Angr (talk) 07:20, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Khuzestani Arabic[edit]

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Per here. Irānshahr (talk) 19:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ per reasoning provided.--TV Man 13 23:03, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This !vote has been struck as coming from a sockpuppet account. See this SPI. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:28, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Since Irānshahr chose not to retype his/her rationale, and since JorisvS might want to archive that talk page, I am copying this from User talk:JorisvS.

Please present some linguistic literature which describes the Arabic spoken in Khuzestan as a subvariety in its own right. It is treated as Mesopotamian Arabic and is indistinguishable from the Arabic spoken in southern Iraq. [1]

Simply because somebody created a stub named "Khuzestani Arabic" doesn't make it a recognized subvariety. I could create an unreferenced stub named "Najafi Arabic" but it wouldn't make the Arabic spoken in Najaf a subvariety. "Khuzestani Arabic" is only ever spoken of in an Iranian context when discussing Persian in relation to the Arabic of Khuzestan.

I'm not even sure that somebody from Ahvaz presents with any accent to somebody from Basrah, much less a unique dialect. Moreover, the Arabic spoken in Khuzestan Province isn't a homogenous entity to speak of; you have cities like Khorramshahr and Abadan on the opposite side of border with Iraq, and you have cities like Ahvaz and Dezful in the center and north of the province.

If you have literature which says otherwise then please present it as it will be of interest to me. Irānshahr (talk) 12:52, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cnilep (talk) 02:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The link provided by Irānshahr ([2]]) does not treat it is as indistinct. The only thing it really says is that Mesopotamian Arabic is also spoken in Khuzestan, which no one denies. The external link in the article (Khuzestani Arabic: a convergence case) says 'Khuzestani Arabic, a Mesopotamian dialect, ...', hence does seem to treat it as distinct. --JorisvS (talk) 10:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"I suggest that you take it to the Khuzestani Arabic talk page and possibly mention the issue at, say, Talk:Varieties of Arabic to get more input. Your points may be valid (I wouldn't know) and should be sorted out there. However, as long as there's an article on it, it should remain in the template. --JorisvS (talk) 17:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)"

If you've suddenly become an expert overnight then present some linguistic literature which describes the Arabic spoken in the Khuzestan Province of Iran as a dialect in its own right. As I explained to you, there are cities in Khuzestan Province that are literally on-the-border with Iraq, and there are other cities in Khuzestan proper. The dialect spoken in the two isn't exactly the same to even speak of a "Khuzestani Arabic" outside of Iranian contexts where the influence of Persian on the Arabic of Khuzestan Province is discussed.

The writer in the linked article coins "Khuzistani Arabic" for convenience: "[...] the dialect of Arabic spoken in Khuzistan province to the south of Iran (henceforth, Khuzistani Arabic, abbreviated as Kh. Arabic) [...] Kh. Arabic, a Mesopotamian dialect, [...]", and doesn't make the claim that it is a unique subvariety. No such claim is made by any linguists.

Linguists recognize two varieties of Mesopotamian Arabic, and identify three subvarieties in the southern variety. None of which are associated with Khuzestan. If in fact a variety unique to Khuzestan did exist I would not have argued otherwise, because it makes no difference to me either way beyond matters of accuracy. Irānshahr (talk) 06:51, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I've done here is say what I think these two sources say, nothing more. Regardless of whether Khuzestani Arabic is considered a distinct subvariety of Mesopotamian Arabic or not, there will be a dialect continuum, which means that dialects from adjacent areas (i.e. also those just on other sides of the border) will be virtually identical. This also means that the Khuzestani of one place will be somewhat different from that of another.

Maybe I should also clarify what I mean when I say 'subvariety': I don't necessarily mean one of the main subdivisions of a variety, but may also mean a subdivision of a subdivision of a variety (and etc.). What I take "[...] the dialect of Arabic spoken in Khuzistan province to the south of Iran (henceforth, Khuzistani Arabic, abbreviated as Kh. Arabic) [...] Kh. Arabic, a Mesopotamian dialect, [...]" to mean is that there is a dialect of Arabic in Khuzestan that the author will henceforth call "Khuzestani Arabic", not that he groups the varieties spoken in the region out of convenience. --JorisvS (talk) 13:14, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It's also treated as a distinct topic. Doing a Google Books search I found "Contact-induced grammatical changes in Khuzestani arabic" by Maryam Shabibi. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:35, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose. Based on what has been discussed here so far, I now tend to oppose deletion. --JorisvS (talk) 11:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, L Faraone 00:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, czar · · 16:15, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It's been two and a half weeks, with little argument beyond the nominator's original rationale. It seems unlikely that re-listing the discussion will help reach consensus. I'm tempted to close this discussion as no consensus, except that I have commented in the discussion, above. Cnilep (talk) 02:27, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.