Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Julian Lane (fighter)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 17:28, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Julian Lane (fighter)

Julian Lane (fighter) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Notability has yet to be established. If he gets a fight against a bigger name opponent, then recreate the page. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 07:35, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 08:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

• Note to AdminWP:NMMA has been established by a consensus of people in the MMA project. According to those rules, all a fighter has to do is have 3 pro fights for a top tier organization, which this fighter has. There are some people who don't want Ultimate Fighter fights for the UFC to count, However, they have yet to get a consensus of people together to agree to modify the currect WP:NMMA. This article like several others, should never have been nominated per the guidelines established by the conensus of people in the project. Anybody saying it should be deleted because it doesn't meet WP:NMMA is clearly wrong, and their vote shouldn't be counted unless they are able to establish a legit argument for deletion per the guidelines.Willdawg111 (talk) 19:17, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
• Keep. Yes you can bang. On wikipedia! PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 10:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 16:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• Delete — Fails WP:NMMA. Poison Whiskey 00:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
• Keep: PASSES WP:NMMA. He is notable enough to have been in top tier promotions such as the UFC, Bellator, and the NAAFS. Take a look at the history of the person recomending the deletion. I have had an issue with him trying to keep changing up my work, get it deleted, and start editing wars. I put quite a bit of time into this article, he is a notable fighter. Please don't let him convince you to destroy by work (not trying to attack the guy, just want to point out that it is odd that almost immediately after he got unblocked for initiating an editing war he would go to my articles and recomend them for deletion). Thanks. Willdawg111 (talk) 01:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

He has no official fights for the UFC. The issue is the notability of the subject, not the history of the nominator. Jakejr (talk) 23:40, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment It may be your work, but it has to pass the guidelines. If it does, then it will be kept, and if it doesnt, it will be deleted. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 09:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Please read WP:NMMA. This article had no business being nominated because it clearly passes. Please review the guidlines. Willdawg111 (talk) 02:51, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
• Response: How many articles have you writen? How many have you went around recomending to be deleted? How many of these guys and organizations you suggest are well known organizations and fighters in the MMA community. Even a casual fan knows who many of them are. I guess I am having a hard time trying to understand why you are participating in this project? You really don't seem to be that knowlegeable or even interested in MMA. I'm not trying to say that you aren't, just pointing out the way it looks to other people. Are you trying to pretend like you are admin or trying really hard to try to get an admin tag? What is it? If for some reason you want to participate in this project, how about going through the list of people, teams, and organizations that need articles written and start working on a few of them. How about you help us build this project, and not try to tear it down. Willdawg111 (talk) 15:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

He has written more articles than you. --LlamaAl (talk) 17:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

*Keep
He passes WP:EFFECT with his memes Plus he was on TV for awhile. Why does everyone pretend that being on TV for weeks at a time doesn't matter? Please see WP:TUF for a thorough explanation as to why these fights do matter.PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 01:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if it matters to anybody, but happened to be looking through some MMA forums, and people are upset about the amount of articles being deleted on Wikipedia because they like to use it as a source as reference. http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/wiki-deleted-ufc-155-event-2257217/ Wiki operates off of donations and if people aren't coming to wiki, they won't be getting donations. How about we stop trying to delete everything and work on improving it. Willdawg111 (talk) 04:36, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• Delete Fails WP:NMMA. The references to Sherdog angst aren't likely to be helpful in the AfD results. I didn't agree with the deletion of UFC 155 and UFC 156 either, but that has nothing to do with this discussion. CaSJer (talk) 21:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
• Delete Fails WP:NMMA since he has only 1 fight for a top tier organization. Jakejr (talk) 23:40, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
• Delete - fails WP:NMMA. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 21:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
• IMPORTANT NOTE about WP:NMMA : For everybody trying to say that it fails WP:NMMA, you might want to take a look at those requirements again. He has 2 fights in the UFC and 1 fight in Bellator (both organizations that are clearly top tier). He also has 6 fights for the NAAFS, which is also a top tier organization. There is absolutely no question that he passes WP:NMMA. Willdawg111 (talk) 01:57, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
• Delete- Fails WP:NMMA. Subject has never fought for the UFC, exhibition bouts does not count. --LlamaAl (talk) 17:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

so are you trying to say that his 2 fights during the show weren't put on by the UFC? We all know that isn't true. Are you trying to say they weren't professional fights? Did you know that it is illegal for a somebody to compete in non-pro MMA after they are a licenced pro? So are you saying all of these guys on TUF should be locked up as criminals? Really? If you don't like the guidelines established by the consensus, then try to get enough people to change them. I don't think you have as many people who want them changed as you think you do. Either way, the current guidelines are estbablished, so they need to be followed, and you can't just change them up yourself because you don't like them. You are the one who kept saying I needed to be less of a fan and follow the guidelines. Isn't it funny that it is you who is advocating not following the guidelines established by the consensus.Willdawg111 (talk) 19:25, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I'm the one who doesn't like guidelines. --LlamaAl (talk) 20:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

You are trying to argue that we should dis-regard them. So we are supposed to use them when they back your point of view, but when they don't back your point of view, dis-regard them? That is what you are apparently trying to convince us.Willdawg111 (talk) 22:50, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide a source to back your claims? looking at Sherdog i have not seen the TUF bouts listed as professional fights. Poison Whiskey 19:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I think Dawgs question remains unanswered "so are you trying to say that his 2 fights during the show weren't put on by the UFC?". Well it's not illegal in Oregon as per eicholz record in oregon. But I have tried to use similar logic of not discounting these guys exhibition fights on TUF. However it seems like people are lacking the common sense that is noted WP:NOTE. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 20:50, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

What it appears to be is a couple people who are very vocal about not wanting to count the TUF fights. The problem is they don't have the consensus they claim they have, because if they did, then it would be really easy for them to get a consensus and change up the guidelines. Their actions are showing us that they don't have the backing of the group in order to get the change made, so they have to go around trying to claim they have something they don't. TUF fights are professional fights and they are put on by a top tier promotion. It's just so simple. Willdawg111 (talk) 22:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

By the way, Sherdogg doesn't record every single professional fight. Why are you even asking for a source? Are you trying to claim the fights never took place? The only reason you would need a source is to confirm they took place, and they all happened on video, were shown on international television. Here's a source for you, how about you go to the wikipedia page for that particular season and the fight and results are on the page. Is that a good enough source to prove the fights took place?Willdawg111 (talk) 22:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Here is the easiest source to pull up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Fighter:_Team_Carwin_vs._Team_Nelson. There are references to places like MMAjunkie another other places to verify that these fights happened. If you are really questioning it, they are showing replays on Fuel TV and the DVD set should come out in the next couple months. Nice try, but I'm pretty sure the UFC can prove these fights took place.Willdawg111 (talk) 22:55, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm aware that the bouts happened. But they were not professional fights. The guideline (WP:NMMA) is clear: "Have fought at least three (3) professional fights for a top-tier MMA organization, such as the UFC". TUF bouts aren't listed as professional fights in any reliable source. Poison Whiskey 23:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

They were professional fights. It would be illegal for them to fight anything else. If they weren't profights, they would never have been sanctioned and both the fighters and the UFC execs who set them up would be locked up for doing them. Not to be funny, but I'm heavily involved in the sport and since I'm a ref and a judge, I deal with sanctioning and all the behind the scenes stuff on a regular basis. All the stuff that goes on before the fight, before the fans ever step through the door, I'm there. Everytime you try to dig for a reason to circumvent the guidelines, you guys look more desperate and more ingorant about the sport. Willdawg111 (talk) 03:01, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Anyone can say they're a ref or a judge online. I could say I'm a King, that doesnt make it true. And even if it was true, that still doesnt make the fighter notable. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 05:35, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

You are right, my MMA licenses have nothing to do with his notability. That is determined by the guidelines that say he is notable. Willdawg111 (talk) 05:44, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Evidence: Evidence to support the athletic commision's involvement in Lane's TUF fights. the following quote taken from the aforementioned is evidence to further advance the claim that the TUF fights should "count" towards meeting WP:NMMA despite already passing WP:GNG

"Lane broke down in tears following the loss, his first as a professional fighter. The unemployed father felt he let his family down, but is determined to come back better and stronger." then it goes on to say "After the fight, Coach Nelson complained to Dana White that Marunde didn’t actually make weight. White was dumbfounded by the allegation. “You can’t fix stupid,” commented White. “If the commissioner said he made 170, then he made 170.” " PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 07:54, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

It is still an exhibition match. Can you explain me why they don't count for the professional record? Poison Whiskey 12:09, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

In all fairness, we have explained to you probably over 10 times what exhibition means. There is a long, complete explanation in the project talk page, which you have been a part of. Exhibition just means the results weren't turned into the ABC soon enough to be included on the record, which is a deal worked out by the UFC so that people don't know the results before the show airs. There are 3 levels to MMA :toughman, ammy, and pro. ammy and pro can be exhibition or non-exhibition (meaning the results are turned in or they aren't turned in). Once you turn pro, the only MMA you can fight is professional. They can be professional MMA fights where they results get turned in or professional exhibition MMA fights where the results don't get turned in. They are still professional fights. I'm not really sure how else to explain it to you to help you understand it any better. If you specific questions about the relationship between the ABC, the state athletic commissions, the promoter, and the fighters, or how the sanctioning works, feel free to hit me up on my talk page. I want to help make people in this project as knowledgeable as I can becuase it will make everything better.Willdawg111 (talk) 16:02, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

What do you say about The Ultimate Fighter: Live? Poison Whiskey 16:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

To quote mma.com "For a variety of reasons, including weight disparity and the demands of entertainment, Exhibition Bouts are held, in which the contest is unscripted and hard fought, but the results do not count on a fighter's Official Record." Folks are getting hung up on the little details. All we need to know in regards to his exhibition fights are that a. They happened (for reasons explained by mma.com), b, it was aired on a popular cable TV. c, that he was was also on TV in general for 6 weeks or so. D. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 21:06, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

• Weak Keep - Meets WP:NMMA. Sepulwiki (talk) 12:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

He doesn't, making your !vote invalid. --LlamaAl (talk) 22:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell the process does not work like that. WP:NOTDEMOCRACY PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 22:58, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

!vote is the same as argument. It is read as "not-vote". --LlamaAl (talk) 23:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Give it up LlamA1, since he passes WP:NMMA, it's your vote that doesn't count unless you can come up with a legit reason why he isn't notable. Willdawg111 (talk) 23:49, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

You don't get it. I want the article to be kept (I even created the dab page and helped you build the article), but it doesn't meet WP:NMMA. The fights which count are the regular ones, not TUF fights. I understand that those bouts are professional, but they don't enter in the definition of "three (3) professional fights for a top-tier MMA organization, such as the UFC". Meery Christmas! --LlamaAl (talk) 00:02, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

They are professional and they are put on by the UFC, a top tier organization, so I don't know how they "don't enter in the definition of "three (3) professional fights for a top-tier MMA organization, such as the UFC". By the way, don't get me wrong, I appreciate help I get while I try to figure out how things work. I have read up on things that people have pointed out to me. I'm sure you have seen me change up some things as I learned more. It was actually somebody pointing out WP:NMMA and me reading up on it that made me realize that TUF fights count. I hope people don't take anything personally, I am just passionately defending what I think is best for the MMA project. Hope you have a Merry Christmas also. Willdawg111 (talk) 03:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Fights that don't appear on his professional record clearly can't be used to show notability. The earliest discussions on fighter notability at WT:MMANOT specifically excluded TUF fights that weren't the finale. Including exhibition fights is like a boxer including results from sparring sessions. Jakejr (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Well I question the mma knowledge of those who were taking part in those early discussions. This is evidenced by your comparing sparring sessions to exhibition fights. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 21:38, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Good tactic--question the competency of those you disagree with. I'm sure Paralympiakos would be glad you said he didn't know anything about MMA. I wasn't among those editors but I'd AGF. Would you prefer I use baseball's exhibition games which also don't count as appearing in the major leagues? Jakejr (talk) 22:02, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

::Are you reeferring to the grapefruit league or whatever that is? Either way I'm sure you could find news coverage of these exhibition games in question. isnt what you are referring to WP:OTHERSTUFF? How did we go from talking about mma topics to baseball? It is illogical to compare televised events to routine sparring matches and these baseball games. Unless the sparring and baseball games got third good third party coverage I would say that is not an apples to apples comparison you have been attempting to present PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 00:58, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

This is all a really desperate attempt to deflect people away from the FACTS: TUF fights are pro fights. TUF fights are put on by a top tier organization. TUF fights MEET notability guidelines established by the consensus. When you don't have the facts on your side, I guess you have to go on a desperate attempt to deflect the focus away from the facts out into left field somewhere. Willdawg111 (talk) 01:03, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Facts about non-finale TUF events (as requested): 1. The UFC doesn't even include those fights in its records or statistics, 2. MMA sources such as sherdog and mixedmartialarts.com don't count them as fights, and 3. The WP consensus which created MMANOT and NMMA was that only TUF finale fights count towards notability. You can see that if you look at the oldest version of MMANOT's first archive. Jakejr (talk) 15:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Delete He doesn't have a single notable win. Entity of the Void (talk) 18:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

He's got 2 wins and 1 loss for a top tier organization. Notability only requires 3 fights.Willdawg111 (talk) 19:34, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Notability requires 3 top tier fights, of which he has 1. Jakejr (talk) 15:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.