Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Juan Manuel Bellón López

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Given the time in which he played, there are likely to be sources offline that participants have been unable to access. Given that fact, a consensus is not going to emerge here since both are arguing from a policy based place (sourcing must exist because he attained this, sourcing has not been found). Star Mississippi 13:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Juan Manuel Bellón López

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Juan Manuel Bellón López is not notable. He is only interesting because his wife is the famous Pia Cramling. The only fact on this page which merits mentioning on Wikipedia is his five-time Spanish Chess Championships, a fact which can also be found on the page of his daughter, Anna Cramling. Every Grandmaster does not deserve their own page for being connected to actually notable grandmasters. Just`Existing 04:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Awards, and Games. Just`Existing 04:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Spain and Sweden. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:21, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm no chess person (rated at like 800) and the article has very little in the way of usable sources. But I'd be shocked if a GM didn't have enough coverage to get over the WP:N bar. Hobit (talk) 01:24, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. To be a chess player who has achieved the highest FIDE title of Grandmaster ought to be enough on it's own, but when you also consider he is a five times national champion, and an Olympiad medal winner (chess's equivalent of the Olympics - the pinnacle of team chess), then of course he is an easy Keep. If this grade of player isn't notable enough for an article, then most chess players on wiki would need to be deleted. Brittle heaven (talk) 02:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are no secondary sources available on either the English or Spanish pages. Being a five time champion is impressive but not enough to guarantee notability without any secondary sources talking about it. Just`Existing 02:05, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Easy keep. He's a Grandmaster, has played in 11 chess olympiads, and is five times champion of a strong chess playing country. It's ridiculous to say he's only known for his marriage to Pia Cramling. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 18:32, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This is a prime example of "internetism", the assumption that if it's not on the internet (or at least easily findable by google) then it's not notable. Bellon was at his peak strength from the early 70s to early 90s, which is why google doesn't turn up many results except in connection with his wife and daughter. But I can assure you that he was well known to chess players before the internet came along, and before he ever met Pia Cramling. Consider, for example, the results of a search of the Swedish magazine Tidsskrift för Schack - 147 hits, about half of them from the pre-internet days. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 01:06, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting discussion. Participants are arguing to Keep this article based on his biography but in AFDs, we need to see evidence of notability established by independent, reliable, seconary sources that can verify information in the article. If you want this article to be Kept, please locate and share sources, online or off, that can help with this process. Withough adequate sourcing, this BLP will be deleted.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Yes lack of significant coverages and need more sources. Xegma(talk) 05:58, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Grandmaster, five time national champion, and frequent participant on the Spanish olympiad team makes Bellon clearly notable as a chess player on his own merits. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:09, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per explanation by MaxBrowne2. It is true that the article, which is only one or two levels above stub quality, did not cite any of the normal sources. The way to fix this is not to delete the article, but to do some research and find and cite the sources. I have made a start on this by citing the Swedish chess magazine that MaxBrowne2 mentioned, to support the first of his Spanish national championship wins. Sorry for using a Swedish-language source, I did not see it in my favorite English-language source, the collected back issues of Chess Life. I would like to do better, but research into pre-internet sources takes time and effort. Sorry guys, it takes more than a negative result of a Google search to determine that an international sports figure is not notable. Bruce leverett (talk) 14:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thing is, we don't need to fix this article tomorrow, or this week, or this year. That's not how Wikipedia works and never has been. Articles start out as stubs and gradually improve over the years. All we need to do is prove that sources on him exist. BLP is not really an issue since the article contains no negative material about the man. Here's a biography in Spanish. https://www.ajedrezdeataque.com/04%20Articulos/51%20Bellon/Juan_Manuel.htm MaxBrowne2 (talk) 18:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The fact that he's a Grandmaster and 5x Spanish Chess Championship easily meets the bar for notability. Smokerton (talk) 23:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This grandmaster has been an iconic ambassador for chess since the 1970's. He and his wife Pia who is also a grandmaster were the first chess grandmaster married couple and their daughter Anna is a chess master too boot. Juan defeated some of the very best players in the world of his generation and he continues to promote chess worldwide. Some of his chess matches were astonishing in his wonderfully aggressive and deliberate style of play. He needs to be remembered then and now. Murraynews (talk) 22:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Snow keep. It's beyond obvious there are sources. Per WP:BEFORE, the onus is on the nominator to add them rather than nominate for AfD. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sportsfan77777, actually in AFDLand it falls to editors arguing to Keep to locate reliable sources and either add them to the article or bring them to the discussion. That has happened here yet. Typically, nominators don't find sources in their BEFORE search which is why they nominate article for deletion consideration. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, that's not true. The nominator did not state they searched for sources. And if they really had trouble finding sources for someone as notable as this, then they lack the WP:COMPETENCE to participate in AfD at all. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:34, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. There is now community consensus that sporting accomplishments alone do not establish notability, but that reliable in-depth sources are required, per WP:GNG. The above comments in the vein of "keep because grandmaster" should therefore be disregarded. Nobody in the above discussion cites appropriate sources. The "ajedrezdeataque.com" article linked to above looks like a WP:SPS. Sandstein 06:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since when has there been a consensus that sporting accomplishments do not established notability? It's beyond me how anyone could consider a many times Spanish national champion of *any* sport non-notable. Sources are obviously going to exist, they're just more difficult to find for people whose main accomplishments were pre-internet. In WP:CHESS we use the olimpbase site a lot. Obviously that's not ideal, but it collates a lot of information that would otherwise only be available off-line. I have identified one source where he is frequently mentioned, the main Swedish chess magazine Tidsskrift för Schack. They've kindly provided their archives on-line, the Spanish and most other national chess federations haven't. Lack of on-line accessibility for sources doesn't mean the article has to be deleted. This would set a very bad precedent. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 11:15, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not an issue if it's an WP:SPS if the author is an established subject-matter expert. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:04, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The policy you link explicitly states Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 02:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning Keep. His titles seem to be a relatively major accomplishment that would receive coverage. Its of note that not a single Spanish newspaper or Spanish chess publication from his time has been searched. It seems that the only available chess magazine from the time is one from Sweden; and it mentions him (remember, he's Spanish, not Swedish) well over 100 times. Common sense would indicate that if Sweden gives over a hundred mentions to a Spanish chess player, Spain would devote significant coverage as well. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Accredited relevance. He has a career that deserves an entry on Wikipedia, due to his age I would not underestimate him, my position is to maintain. --Alon9393 (talk) 17:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The "Keep" voters haven't shown any reliable secondary sources that could allow an in-depth article to be written, or evidence that these sources exist, except claiming that they automatically exist because of his accomplishments. Without sources, even if the person has a prestigious title, we can't write an encyclopedic article. Notability is about quality of sourcing, not about titles. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 02:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also noting that MaxBrown2's notice to WP:CHESS is extremely non-neutral in its wording and could likely be considered WP:CANVASSING. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 02:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.