Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Jacobson (Catholic convert)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Will move to Robert Jacobson leaving a redirect. (non-admin closure) | Uncle Milty | talk | 01:12, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph Jacobson (Catholic convert)[edit]

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Subject is only mentioned in passing (i.e., trivially) in the sources given. No in depth coverage. Nominating for deletion as a non-notable individual. KDS4444^Talk 08:03, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - tend to agree. Nothing remarkable about being a priest, being a convert, or having written a book. Deb (talk) 19:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph Jacobson is a proeminent Roman Catholic convert from Lutheranism. A former Lutheran clergymen, intelectual and with a past inside Lutheranism, showing his discordance against liberal thoughts as gay marriage and abortion, accepted by many Lutheran denominations. As a married priest, inside Latin Rite, show his importance to discuss some themes inside Roman Catholic discipline. Roltz (talk) 00:50, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That is all well and good, but can you provide some sources that indicate that he has been the subject of news articles with a broad public interest (i.e., not just the Catholic press) in which he is the subject of the article (not just mentioned in passing)? That is what this article needs to be retained, and so far it doesn't seem to have it. KDS4444^Talk 04:04, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 02:45, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:23, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:23, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:24, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:24, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note That his role as a Lutheran Bishop was covered in major newspapers, HOWEVER, Joseph R. Jacobson used the name Robert when he was a Lutheran, and goes by Joseph as a Catholic, making it unlikely that nom would have found those sources. Nom was perhaps also unaware that being a Bishop of an major church is like being elected to the legislative body of a major polity, ie., it makes you notable by definition.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:KDS4444, Hi. You may have missed the mention in the article of the earlier part of his career, as a Lutheran Bishop. Not your ordinary Catholic convert. I saw that and figured he had got to be notable, but I had a dickens of a time sourcing him until I realized that he had changed the given name he uses at conversion (switched form what seems to have been his middle name - Robert - to his first name, although I did not find a source on which name was on his birth & Christening certificates, only enough to make it certain that the name change took place. Also, perhaps you are not familiar with WP:BISHOPS, but the Presidents, Moderaters and so forth of major Protestant churches, along with bishops of Eastern rite churches, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Anglican churches are presumed notable (bishops of small/new denominations recently founded by new/small as yet non-notable denominations are not, unless coverage passes GNG, of course). Also note that a Catholic paper can be just as notable as a a secular paper, it depends on the paper. The major problem her, of course, is his name. If you run a news search on a good engine (I used Proquest) and look at the 80s and 90s you will find ample coverage of his career and policy moves as Bishop. Best, E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:31, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As a Bishop of a major denomination Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada he is automatically notable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

E.M.Gregory: This is all rather interesting. Let me mention this: I have always struggled with the "automatically notable" presumption given in many of the subject-specific Wikipedia notability guidelines— these guidelines were written to help editors quickly assess whether or not a given subject is likely to be notable, not a carte blanche on their notability which, if questioned, must still actually be proven through the presence of multiple, independent, reliable sources covering the subject non-trivially. Instead, they seem to have devolved into the latter rather than remained the former— this particular article may be a case in point. What are your thoughts on that? KDS4444^Talk 15:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I find them useful because they are an efficient way to guide us not to delete articles on people who are virtually certain to be sourceable. Jacobson is a good case in point. Although sourcing in the the article was paltry, it turns out that keeping as per that guideline would have been the correct decision. What I couldn't figure out at first was why a Lutheran Bishop was not coming up on my early searches. I kept looking because it had to be either that the article was wrong and he wasn't a bishop, or that something else - like spelling - was wrong. once I got the right name a proquest newspaper archives search on: bishop + robert + jacobson + Lutheran pulled p substantive coverage. Since he was bishop of Alberta, it was largely in the Edmonton Journal, naturally, but also in other major Canadian dailies. And I am sure that there is more in Lutheran papers and elsewhere, including books covering the issues he was involved with, including women's ordination and Lutheran-Catholic relations. WP:CLERGYOUTCOMES makes it easy to avoid making a mistake like deleting this article, when all it needs is an editor willing to improve it. Goven the dearth of editors with the resources (access to for-pay search engines) and will to look for sources that might establish that articles at AFD pass GNG, I find such guidelines useful.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:20, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This article is a mess, but as Lutheran Bishop of Alberta and the Territories for 10 years he had impact and coverage, plus the coverage associated with a Lutheran Bishop becoming a Catholic priest.--Samuel J. Howard (talk) 16:34, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Diocesan bishop of a major denomination. Rename to Robert Jacobson, his name as a bishop. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.