Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Cary (valet)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Some arguments convincing enough have been made in favor of keeping this article. Since there is no reasonable merge target, merge does not seem likely at the moment. Tone 18:02, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

John Cary (valet)

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A black "body servent" to George Washington name checked by Twain and listed very implausibly as being 114 in an 1843 almanac which does not seem like a very well researched or scholarly publication hampered by the difficulty of doing research in the time period. The subject probably lived and died, but did nothing notable. Fails WP:GNG and is almost certainly a case of Age fabrication. Legacypac (talk) 20:16, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This meets WP:ANYBIO #3, The person has an entry in the Dictionary of National Biography or similar publication (in this case, Appletons' Cyclopaedia of American Biography [1]). If it is an example of an old biography which may have dubious content, then the article needs work to reflect that, but it shouldn't be deleted. Boleyn (talk).

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Virginia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 14:13, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington, D.C.-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 14:13, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A click away from the bio is this disclaimer [2] which surely applies to this short bio making an extraordinary claim. Legacypac (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete This article fails WP:NOTINHERITED and WP:NOPAGE. His age claim is quite dubious and just because he was loosely connected to a famous man, that doesn't mean he inherits that man's notability, which is presently the basis of this article. Newshunter12 (talk) 01:10, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Boleyn, above. The three inline cites appended to the entry confirm subject's standing as a historical figure, while his entry in Appletons' Cyclopædia of American Biography, a rare distinction for an African-American in the historical era of the Cyclopædia's publication in 1880s United States, verifies his notability. While individual details, such as his birth year, need further research, Cary's place among Wikipedia entries is secured per WP:ANYBIO #3, as indicated by Boleyn. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 10:02, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Given the lack of additional sources how can we fix what must he an error? Legacypac (talk) 14:52, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When petitioning for a Revolutionary Pension in the year of his death, 1843, sixty years after the Revolutionary War ended in 1783, John Cary apparently overstated, most likely by about twenty years, the year of his birth as 1729, three years before George Washington's birth in 1732. Thus, his probable age at death was around 94, rather than 114. However, in an era when the average lifespan was much shorter than it is today, 94 or even 84, must have seemed to be extremely old age. In any event, his 1843 claim of being born in 1729 was repeated without comment 45 years later, when Appletons' Cyclopædia was published in 1887–89. Cary died 175 years ago and the exact year of his birth may never be discovered. The Wikipedia article does not accept his purported year of birth at face value, indicating that "Cary claimed that he was born in Westmoreland County, Virginia, in August 1729". The stub does not mention Appletons' Cyclopædia, but it can certainly be added that his entry in the Cyclopædia repeated the age claim. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:45, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is the overstatement by 20 years sourced? Our page flatly accepted the birthdate until just hefore this AfD when I tagged it as dubious. Legacypac (talk) 18:53, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The only sources apparently easily accessible at this time are the ones listed. The contention that he overstated his age in falsely portraying himself as a supercentenarian when applying for pension is, indeed, only a contention which deserves to be noted in the Wikipedia article. However, his listing in the Cyclopædia, especially in view of the extreme rarity of such an entry for an African-American during that era, distinctly qualifies him for Wikikpedia. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Meets WP:GNG with several reliable sources. Wikipedia has guidelines on citing dates if definite dates of birth and/or death are not known MOS:APPROXDATE. One point says "Other forms of uncertainty should be expressed in words, either in article text or in a footnote: April 14, 1224 (unattested date). Do not use a question mark (1291?), because it fails to communicate the nature of the uncertainty." So the lead sentence could have 'John Cary (August 1729 (unattested date) - 2 June 1843)'. He did claim that as his birth date, and that claim is referenced. We have no sources, primary or secondary, to prove or disprove his date of birth, so all we can say is that he claimed it, and it's unattested. I would disagree that he was "loosely" connected with a famous man, and I agree with Roman Spinner that inclusion of an African-American in a national dictionary of biography at that time was a rarity. The Appletons' Cyclopædia article states that (1) issues of reliability largely concern Latin American entries, and (2) it "should be used cautiously until verified against other sources", which we have, as there is a contemporary record in the US Congressional papers of discussion about this man, so there is no question about his existence. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:07, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment is there any possible place to merge this? The sources are decent for notability, but they don't add up to more than a few short sentences of material; there's almost no context in which to present this information, and it seems like it'd be best served somewhere that can give a fuller picture. Maybe into the article on George Washington or some subarticle thereof? Everything that's here could easily be merged with no loss of content. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.