Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish right

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Bishonen | talk 11:57, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish right[edit]

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Proposing WP:TNT. Certainly there are right wing and conservative Jews. However, this article has existed for over 10 years and is not only virtually unsourced but woefully unimproved (except for the names and images of a lot of Republican politicians.) Note that we have articles on right wing and politically conservative Jewish groups, including Republican Jewish Coalition, Likud, Category:Conservative parties in Israel and so forth. However, this article, judging by its 11-year track record, is simply too sprawling and inchoate to enable creation of a coherent article. I suggest that we blow it up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by E.M.Gregory (talk • contribs) 09:50, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per OP 74.70.146.1 (talk) 10:23, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Agree; at this points partly duplicates better presented material, and the rest is both unsourced and too broad to be useful. The latter half of the article is basically "list of Jews that seem to be Conservatives" - really? -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 11:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or redirect; the Jewish right is a significant political force in the Knesset (just try a Google search for "religious parties", and the results are primarily Israeli, with India and other countries falling behind), because as The Economist notes, they've often been critical to the coalition governments that are basically always necessary in Israel's multiparty system. Lacking any better target, this could be redirected to Politics of Israel#Political right if consensus holds the current content to be TNT-worthy. Nyttend (talk) 12:20, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Israeli right is already covered in Politics of Israel#Political right.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:49, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would also add that religious is not always right. The religious parties in Israel are all over the political spectrum. This article is about "conservative" (from the US side of things) Jews. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But you're addressing issues about the article's current scope. I'm saying that if we decide to get rid of the current content, the current title would make a good redirect to this place (although perhaps Politics of Israel#Political right would be a better place). As long as the title remains a useful bluelink, I don't care what's done with the article. Nyttend (talk) 19:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

An aritcle about right-wing parties in Israel should surely be called something like Israeli right wing politics rather than Jewish whatever. Not all Israeli voters are Jewish.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:03, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:54, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:57, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:57, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Nothing in here is new or valuable. That Jews can be conservative or right leaning is not a big deal. For specific country information we have articles for that. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - There is also a Jewish left article, so without an article like this it would be pretty imbalanced. I would say they should either both be kept or both deleted, or both merged into an article that discusses both. - Galatz ^Talk 14:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

, except that article is much better sourced and it has historical Jewish leftists causes and it doesn't read as a mirror article for this one. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:13, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I did look at Jewish left before bringing this to AFD, but, while I wouldn't give it "good article" status, it is a real article; probably because Marxist/leftist Jewish political organizing has been a large scale movement with powerful Jewish political parties winning seats in parliaments, theorists, and copious published sources since, well, since Marx.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:49, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am not so sure I agree with that rationale. Being a stub article is not a reason to delete it, its a reason to improve it. To me the options are to improve this one or do the same thing to both, we can't justify one and not the other. - Galatz ^Talk 14:33, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Galatz, Because I know and respect your work here, I am taking time to give your comment a serious reponse. I see this article as filled with problematic assumptions that appear to be a combination of ignorance of the topic and simple-minded backward projection of contemporary assumptions about what is "right" and what is "left" - wing. For example , the subhead assumes that all "religious" parties are right wing. Ant yet one of parties/movements that helped create Israel was the the Religous Zionist Labor Party. Today this reads like an oxymoron, but these were seriously committed socialists who believed in God and prayed 3 times a day. E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:03, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The concept "political left" has a sort of coherence built around the fact that modern mass democracy and Marxism began in roughly the same era (dating that to the French Revolution and to the enormously impactful Reform Act 1832; an Act that did not give enfranchise Jews, that was still a long while off.) Because "left" has this rough coherence, we have articles like French Left, but not French right, although we do have the more narrowly defined History of far-right movements in France.

The "Political right", or "Jewish right," is an even less coherent, not least because you had old-time political parties like Poalei Agudat Yisrael (which was an ultra-orthodox Workers Party, and Torah va'Avoda , the Religious Zionist Socialists founded in Poland (trusting my memory on this) to train young Zionists to work the land so that they could make aliyah and create a new class of religious Jewish Zionist Socialist worker/peasants. This article, however, assumes not only that "religious Zionism" is definitionally right-wing, but that nationalism itself is definitionally right wing, and yet Labor Zionism, a movement of card-carrying Socialist nationalists that is probably the most significant Jewish political movement in history. This is the sort of thing that makes me urge that weblow it up with WP:TNT.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:26, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I could easily envision an article about contemporary right wing Israeli politics, but an article about a longue durée "Jewish right" is highly problematic, not least becasue 1920s Poland, Hungary, or Czechoslovakia are among the very few places where Jewish populations of significant size ever lived under democratic governments, and among these, Polish politics would be the really interesting topic. In 1920s Poland Jewish parties came in all flavors and had seats in Parliament (by the early 30s, Polish antisemitism was so vicious that Jewish political options were few - and the term "Jewish right" is sort of black humor when applied to that place and time. And that was before the Panzers rolled in.) I'm rambling, but I truly fail to see a way to create a coherent article about the Jewish right of anything like the scope and calibre of our sadly sub-standard article Jewish left.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:03, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete both per nominator. In addition, this is simply an article gathering some information about people who were politically right and Jewish, which is a non-notable cross-section. Debresser (talk) 16:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If unimproved, Merge into Jewish political movements. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 10:05, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish political movements has reasonably good sections on "Modern Jewish" political movements both "In Israel" and, "Outside Israel".E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:11, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Conservatism-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep The reason the article is so weak is because editors are deleting relevant material [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] (yes, some may not have sources, but that doesn't mean those sources could not be easily found.). There were Jews who supported Hitler--e.g. Association_of_German_National_Jews, Haavara Agreement. We have an entire category Category:Jewish Nazi collaboration. Those are not conservatives--they are right wing. Why is that not in the article? And why is Kissinger not in the article as was the case here? Here is an older version with more material retained [6]. --David Tornheim (talk) 09:52, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.