Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish etiquette

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Because of substantial sourcing and OR problems. Can be userfied (though not by me) for further improvement.  Sandstein  12:05, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish etiquette[edit]

Jewish etiquette (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This is an essay, not an encyclopedia article. It largely consists of an editor's extrapolation from the practices among one Jewish community to "Jewish etiquette". Large amounts of original research. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:38, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have since addressed the issue that you mentioned, renaming the article to "Yemenite Jewish etiquette," instead of the more general title of "Jewish etiquette." As for the "essay-like" style, I am correcting that too, so that it does not read like an essay.Davidbena (talk) 16:08, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Malik Shabazz Malik, is there anything usable here that would make a viable article? The concept seems worthy of an article at first glance. Irondome (talk) 02:45, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The subject of Jewish etiquette (דרך ארץ, derech eretz) is definitely notable, and some of what's in this article might be suitable for a section of an article that was based on general sources on that subject. As written, however, most of this article is almost a sociological study of etiquette among the Jewish community in Yemen that's extrapolated, as if what was true about the Yemenite Jews in one period is true of all Jews in all lands throughout history. That may or may not be the case—I'm skeptical, but I don't claim to be an expert in the history of Jewish manners—but books about the history of Jewish etiquette would be appropriate sources, not almost exclusively books about Yemenite Jews. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:11, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Malik Shabazz, shalom. I think the article makes it very clear in the beginning that Jews were exiled and that etiquette has changed from country to country. With that said, the author of the work that I cited in the lead paragraph alleges that Yemenite Jewish customs of etiquette were once pervasive among all Jewish communities, which view is also supported by the Minor Tractate "Derech Eretz" and whose list of mannerisms of Jews (when that work was first compiled) mirrors those of Yemenite Jews. It is no secret that the Jews of Yemen are held to have preserved the ancient-most traditions in Israel.Davidbena (talk) 04:25, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I brought this editor to WP:ANI for overindulgence in WP:OR, a ban was in the making but for some strange reason it did not get decided/applied. My view is that this editor overindulges in WP:PRIMARY religious sources, sometimes he quotes WP:SECONDARY sources, mostly in Hebrew, which I don't read and I cannot check if they verify the added information, as pointed by others at Talk:Intelligent design he cannot be trusted to render the view of the secondary sources he does quote, engaging instead in WP:SYNTH and WP:Editorializing. I guess WP:TNT would apply. Tgeorgescu (talk) 03:02, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Tgeorgescu, The standard procedure for bringing down foreign language sources is to comply to any request for an English translation of the original source. I will be happy to do this if anyone should ask for a direct English translation of sources provided.Davidbena (talk) 04:18, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have in fact sympathy for him, but despite my sympathy I have to note that he learned nothing from the WP:ANI ban proposal, or from his many rejected AFC submissions. Tgeorgescu (talk) 03:23, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very sorry if I misunderstood the WP:ANI ban proposal. I never knew that we were prohibited from suggesting amendments to the article Intelligent Design (see last discussion on Talk-Page there), which, unfortunately, incensed a lot of my co-editors against me. No offense intended.Davidbena (talk) 04:35, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The subject is notable and there are good sources (Encyclopaedia Judaica, s.v. ETIQUETTE), keep, WP:KEEP. --185.13.106.107 (talk) 04:46, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Davidbena: Your efforts are worthy, your persistence is admirable, it is just that Wikipedia is not the venue for such articles. See WP:NOTESSAY. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:40, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you say this work infringes upon WP:NOTESSAY, may God forbid, when the vast majority of the sources quoted here, except where otherwise stated, have been drawn from Yosef Qafih's seminal work, "Jewish Life in Sana (Halichot Teman)", and where he devotes an entire chapter (pp. 260–263) to the topic of "Common Blessings and Etiquette"? Furthermore, as for the Hebrew language preserved by Yemenite Jewry, Israeli linguist Hanoch Yelon, in Lĕšonénu: A Journal for the Study of the Hebrew Language and Cognate Subjects (issue 3) (1931), has already noted how the Yemenite Jewish modes of speech are a common heritage of all of Israel, the Jewish nation of old. In the cases that I have specifically mentioned in this article, I have cited reliable sources that state explicitly that such language as noted in the article was used in the form of good manners and etiquette.Davidbena (talk) 14:13, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me a textbook case of WP:SYNTH. "Hebrew language has some words" non sequitur "this is the etiquette of most Jews". Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:19, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment As a goy working for an Orthodox Jew, I really have to wonder whether there is a common Jewish etiquette which cuts across the various communities in different countries. Mangoe (talk) 15:18, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The current situation is a bit of a mess. Derekh eretz already exists as a disambiguation page with links to four articles. Torah im Derech Eretz, in particular, has a lenghty editing history that suggests it was initially conceived and developed as an article about at least some aspects of the concept, including etiquette. The current lead of that article seems to focus the article more narrowly on the views of R. Samson Raphael Hirsch but the content of the article is broader than that. The topic discussion as a whole could stand to see some rationalization and reorganization but exactly what that should look like would require discussion. As it currently stands, I agree with the majority here that the current Jewish etiquette article smacks of WP:OR and, under that title, at least, is misfocused, and it's not clear a separate article solely on the topic of "Jewish etiquette", in the limited sense of social courtesy, can stand up. --Arxiloxos (talk) 17:15, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:58, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:NOTESSAY. The page is completely misnamed; this is a case study of Yemenite Jewish customs, certainly not "derech eretz" or the mistranslated "Jewish etiquette". Anything that's not OR or SYNTH could be summarized under Yemenite Jews, where the page creator is already active. Yoninah (talk) 22:07, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So, do you think with minor changes per style (so as not to read like an essay), the title of the article should be changed to "Yemenite Jewish etiquette"? I could agree to that.Davidbena (talk) 23:08, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, not "etiquette"! Yemenite Jewish customs, maybe. (Some of your sources specify Ancient Yemenite Jewish customs–we can't assume that any modern-day Yemenite Jews follow these customs.) But reading more closely, you have a lot of SYNTH here that must be removed before making a Yemen-specific article. SYNTH means that you're familiar with some customs so you wrote them up for an article and then went looking for sources to back them up. The article is cobbled together rather than flows naturally. Most of the "Table etiquette" section isn't Yemen-specific. The third paragraph under "Personal hygiene and conduct in the toilet" is only quoting the Rambam and the Gemara, showing that this custom isn't unique to Yemen and, without Yemenite sources, might not have even been practiced there. I think you should stick to your Yemen-specific sources for your research and paraphrase what they say to make a new article. Ideally, every sentence should be cited to a source (that will help cut down on the essay-like tone). And please get rid of all those references to "derech eretz" and Derekh Eretz Rabbah, which is a product of original research–trying to make connections between two disparate subjects. Yoninah (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Yemen-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:13, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Yoninah, The word "customs" is far too broad of a term, and would incorporate far more than what I am willing to undertake. The whole point here is to mention "etiquette," just as there are articles on Japanese etiquette, etc. The vast majority of sources deal specifically with etiquette. Since the original idea was to show "Jewish etiquette" it explains my citation as a source of "Tractate Derech Eretz" and of Rambam, many of which mannerisms recorded there mirror those of Yemenite Jews. To show that there are similar areas of etiquette, is this an infringement of WP:OR? After all, Yemenites belong to the family of Jews and have actually followed to the letter many of the same codes of etiquette. Am I only allowed to mention Yemenite Jewish sources, without referencing the Talmud, let's say with a sign of direction "cf." (compare)? Since we say in Hebrew, "No man sees his own disabilities" (אין אדם רואה נגעי עצמו), do you think that you could help me remove those places in the article which you said appears to be from WP:SYNTH? Davidbena (talk) 01:13, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have already begun to make the necessary changes in this article to make it conform to Wikipedia standards. Much work still needs to be done. I am working on the assumption that I will be allowed to change the name of this article to the more appropriate title of "Yemenite Jewish etiquette," and to make it conform strictly to Yemenite Jewish mannerisms and codes of etiquette. To that end, I will make a new sub-section entitled "Tractate Derech Eretz" in which I will amass all the references cited in that tractate and which are not directly connected, per se, to Yemenite Jewish custom, although they might be. In this manner, I will avoid what appears to be an infringement of WP:SYNTH. All that I ask here is patience from my fellow co-editors.Davidbena (talk) 14:32, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To whom it may concern: This morning, I began to incorporate the changes in the article, which User:Yoninah and I agreed upon in the article's Talk-Page (new title, rewrite of lead paragraph, adding a sub-section entitled "Background"). I still have more to do, but I'll have to wait till this afternoon to resume the work. Meanwhile, editors here should feel free to add or subtract whatever they may feel would be beneficial to our readers. I am in the process of collecting other references.Davidbena (talk) 06:41, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The page has been moved, which I believe is not allowed during an AFD discussion. Yoninah (talk) 11:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Can an administrator (e.g. User:Avraham) please tell us whether or not we are permitted to change a title of an article during an AFD discussion? The change of title was done in accordance with what is being discussed in the ongoing discussion.Davidbena (talk) 14:02, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't forbidden, but it may lead to confusion. See Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#You may edit the article during the discussion. -- Avi (talk) 20:00, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 02:22, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To Whom It May Concern: Many of the issues which prompted this WP:AFD on 9 November 2017 have since been addressed and corrected. I appeal to those adjudicating over the worthiness of Wikipedia articles to consider keeping this valuable and informative article, as it fits the notability requirement of articles. Meanwhile, I shall continue to improve the style of the article, as time permits.Davidbena (talk) 02:25, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • delete per WP:NOTMANUAL. This is not an encyclopedia article, sourced to anthropology books and describing actual Yemeni etiquette. It is more of an instruction manual and in that spirit is actually sourced to things like the Talmud and other very, very old texts that can only be sources for content about behavior at the times they were written. (people may find explanations or justifications for current behavior in such books, but a source would be needed for that). This is instruction not anthropological description. Doesn't belong in WP. Jytdog (talk) 21:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It does not surprise me that you would vote this way, since you and I have a history of "contentious" communication. This is not an instruction manual, but rather a description of etiquette, just as it exists in EVERY article on etiquette, Check for yourself.Davidbena (talk) 18:51, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Quite a breach of etiquette to attack another person this way. :) But also irrelevant in AfD. Just take as an example the section on Yemenite_Jewish_etiquette#The_Evil_eye. Lovely writing but unsourced, actually. The "sources" there are to Rashi (irrelevant to support content discussing contemporary behavior/beliefs) and something described as "Journal Teima, [...]". Looking at the 77 sources, about half of them are to the Talmud, Rashi, something called Aleph-Be, United Torath Avoth: Bnei-Barak, dictionaries, etc. Ref 55 is an unsourced essay all of it own. There is no sense of time here either. Are all of these customs in 2017? ISBN 965-235-011-7 is the kind of source to be using but that is from 1983, an entire generation ago. Jytdog (talk) 19:19, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete -The article reads like a cross between a dictionary entry and an essay with an elaborate bibliography, not an encyclopedic article. It also appears to be independently researched. Delete per WP:NOR and WP:NOTESSAY. -AuthorAuthor (talk) 04:02, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The issues initially raised have been satisfactorily addressed.Davidbena (talk) 18:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The source for the first paragraph under Yemenite Jewish etiquette#Common respect for parents, teachers and elders is sourced, namely, Shelomo Dov Goitein, The Yemenites – History, Communal Organization, Spiritual Life (Selected Studies), editor: Menahem Ben-Sasson, Jerusalem 1983, p. 259. The second paragraph was taken from the journal named, but I must find again the year, issue and page number. As for this article, please try comparing the sources cited in "Yemenite Jewish etiquette" with the sources cited in Etiquette in Japan.Davidbena (talk) 21:26, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Right, the sources for the Middle East article are a joke. But please try to keep the sifrei kodesh out of everything except the Background section. Yoninah (talk) 21:39, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Yoninah, the way that I have dealt with the issue of referring to "sifrei kodesh" is to merely cite "Compare" (cf.), without saying specifically that the practice dates back to the older source.Davidbena (talk) 06:19, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe the best thing here would be to draftify this and then put it through AfC after davidbena dramatically revises it? davidbena if you would agree to that, we can simply withdraw the AfD and you can fix this in peace, if User:Malik Shabazz agrees.... Jytdog (talk) 21:47, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
First, you, indeed, raised a good point that there "is no sense of time" in the article, which I will do my best to incorporate the matter into this article at your request. To briefly answer, though, older Yemenite Jews still practice this etiquette, and it is taught in Yemenite Jewish seminaries and "Talmud Torah" throughout the country. So, yes, the etiquette is still applicable in 2017, except where otherwise the article notes that the practice has become obsolete. As for the secondary sources used, none are "very, very old texts" as you alleged, but have been written and published in our generation. Since I am doing my very best to satisfactorily address all the issues that you have raised here, and since there is some merit in keeping this article in "main space," while the minor idiosyncrasies that do exist do not justify its deletion, I would be against putting it in draftspace until an AfC be made on it. I am willing to let the judges of AFD judge the merits of this article, for good or for bad, and if worse comes to worse, I can only say that I tried my best to do what I humbly saw as right to do. BTW: One of the sources cited by me, namely, "Aleph-Be," is published and distributed by a Yemenite "Talmud Torah" in Bnei Barak, and has therein a specific chart on etiquette.Davidbena (talk) 06:00, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Glad you are hearing the issue with putting things into time.
You need sources to state in the page, that older Yemeni Jews still follow this.
In general the page is way too much coming out of your mind and experience, with refs thrown in behind that. This is not OK, and therefore this page is very, very likely to be deleted per TNT as it is fundamentally flawed. I guess that is the road we are going down. Jytdog (talk) 19:38, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As for what you said about providing a source that the "older Yemeni Jews still follow this," those who know the community, know that this is the case, just like saying that the Lakota Indians of North and South Dakota, most of them no longer dwell in Tipis, but in regular box houses. There is no infringement on WP:OR when the subject matter is WP:SKYBLUE, even if it had not been supported by a source. Besides, this source: Yehuda Ratzaby, Dictionary of the Hebrew Language used by Yemenite Jews (אוצר לשון הקדש שלבני תימן), Tel-Aviv 1978, Preface (p. ט"ז) [Hebrew], says explicitly that the "writing etiquette" is practised to this very day! As a former seminary student in Jerusalem, I was also taught the same Yemenite Jewish etiquette, and have seen it practised between Yemenites themselves. Had I written an article in which I tried to prove a certain scientific point of view, using my own inferences, and one that could easily be disproven, that would be tantamount to WP:OR. Here, the obvious is the obvious, to those who know the community. Moreover, it is taught in the curriculum of the Yemenite "Talmud Torah" in Bnei Barak, as shown by its published text book.Davidbena (talk) 22:09, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Most of what you write there is demonstrating that this is an essay reflecting your personal knowledge, which means it doesn't belong in WP. A source from 1978 that says "to this very day" is relevant as of 1978 and not a day beyond that. Jytdog (talk) 02:11, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If the article reflects an "essay-like style," it is my own short-coming. If you see places that sound like as essay, please feel free to change the style. We are permitted here to work on the article while undergoing this review. I will also continue to improve the style, so that it sounds more "encyclopedic."Davidbena (talk) 02:31, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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